Mughals - JA(REAL) is not Fiction-Pt4 - Author/TM's note on Pg1 and 91 - Page 68

Originally posted by: geeta58

history-geek ur name will go down the history, fr entertaining our qustns. with such an enthu, n patience👏

My qstn is I hv recently read that Mirza hakim was defeated by Maan singh.If this is true, why n when did the difference between Akbar n his half bro came abt?I am doubtful, the shivani incident has any holding in the history😆

2. I remember u had written jodha seem to hv been creamated.Why then in the serial they hv shown their tomb during soul talking? I remember to hv seen their tombs nearby each other in Sikri .

3. Somebody frm hv said Ruqs tomb being in Kabul. Why on earth she went to Kabul to die?😲 Any other begum did hv child frm Akbar? I had lost ur tread, n was confused, that'why so many questns😃

Hi Geeta,
Thank You for your appreciating words. Responding to this query, first, as this question has been asked TODAY in many PMs as well. And seems this is the query of many. 😊

1.
Yes, Man Singh defeated Mirza Hakim, in the Battle at Lahore.
Here is a brief description, of Man Singh and Mirza Hakim's 'encounter', including Man Singh's speech to Mirza Hakim, which demonstrates Man Singh's will-power and his loyalty to Akbar.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/100584186

Here is a better description about Mirza Hakim.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/98657498

The difference between Akbar and Mirza Hakim surfaced during the "Mughal-Uzbek Storm" (as it is said) in mid 1560's. Mirza Hakim was a young ruler of 12 years at this time. He attacked Lahore, entered Punjab. The reason given by Abul Fazl is that -> "Hakim came under the influence of some wicked men and became disobedient." And, there is more information provided for this incident. I am trying to understand what the exact matter was, as it was a very confusing description.😕 Will update soon. But, Akbar forgave Mirza Hakim this time, who fled back to Indus, when Akbar crossed Satluj river, as per Akbarnama.

I have not heard about any marriage talk between Hakim-Shivani, that too in 1562-63(as per serial). Mirza Hakim was 9-10 years old at this time. 😆

Also, I NEVER found / heard, that Shivani eloped. But, something about Tuhir Das, is in these 2 pages.
Page-28
Page-29


2.
There were NOT 1 BUT MANY compelling reasons for me to "doubt" about MUZ's last rites.
I have posted in detail in this thread also. See this link. You will find the reasons, why i said so. Page - 86. There are 3-4 comments in continuation.

About the soul talks in the serial - It is Jodha who COMES to Akbar's Tomb to see/meet him. See the first episode of Jodha Akbar aired on 18 June 2013. You will get it. They have mentioned it SPECIFICALLY as "Akbar ka Makbara".

Yes, MUZ's Tomb is near Akbar's in Sikandra. Less than half a km away. At that time(when it was constructed) MUZ's tomb was at a prime location. It's location was at the road which was PROMINENTLY used for travelling from Agra to Lahore. Later, as Mughal Empire weakended and more structures came, hence it was neglected.

BTW, Even Rajput rulers got their tombs constructed. So what's different in "present" case.. See those comments in the link i mentioned above on Page - 86 . You will understand better.

3.
As far as i know, Ruqayya Begum passed away in Agra ONLY. But she was buried in Kabul, at the Gardens of Babur.
For MUZ, she had her resting place at Sikandra near Akbar's tomb. She is Akbar's ONLY wife to have a resting place NEAR to him. On her wishes, a step-well / baoli was constructed by her son, Jahangir at this place.


> About Children, a new thread is coming soon. Hope you will wait.

> Links to all my threads are present in my signature below. I have 5 threads till now. Most of your doubts, PROBABLY, have been answered, in those threads already. Have a look. No issues in posting questions. 😊




Correction:
MUZ's Tomb is less than half a kilometre away from Akbar's Tomb.

{ The member (below) has been to these tombs many times. } Thanx for the input. 😊

Originally posted by: history_geek

Hi Geeta,
Thank You for your appreciating words. Responding to this query, first, as this question has been asked TODAY in many PMs as well. And seems this is the query of many. 😊

1.
Yes, Man Singh defeated Mirza Hakim, in the Battle at Lahore.
Here is a brief description, of Man Singh and Mirza Hakim's 'encounter', including Man Singh's speech to Mirza Hakim, which demonstrates Man Singh's will-power and his loyalty to Akbar.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/100584186

Here is a better description about Mirza Hakim.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/98657498

The difference between Akbar and Mirza Hakim surfaced during the "Mughal-Uzbek Storm" (as it is said) in mid 1560's. Mirza Hakim was a young ruler of 12 years at this time. He attacked Lahore, entered Punjab. The reason given by Abul Fazl is that -> "Hakim came under the influence of some wicked men and became disobedient." And, there is more information provided for this incident. I am trying to understand what the exact matter was, as it was a very confusing description.😕 Will update soon. But, Akbar forgave Mirza Hakim this time, who fled back to Indus, when Akbar crossed Satluj river, as per Akbarnama.

I have not heard about any marriage talk between Hakim-Shivani, that too in 1562-63(as per serial). Mirza Hakim was 9-10 years old at this time. 😆

Also, I NEVER found / heard, that Shivani eloped. But, something about Tuhir Das, is in these 2 pages.
Page-28
Page-29


2.
There were NOT 1 BUT MANY compelling reasons for me to "doubt" about MUZ's last rites.
I have posted in detail in this thread also. See this link. You will find the reasons, why i said so. Page - 86. There are 3-4 comments in continuation.

About the soul talks in the serial - It is Jodha who COMES to Akbar's Tomb to see/meet him. See the first episode of Jodha Akbar aired on 18 June 2013. You will get it. They have mentioned it SPECIFICALLY as "Akbar ka Makbara".

Yes, MUZ's Tomb is near Akbar's in Sikandra. Around a km away. At that time(when it was constructed) MUZ's tomb was at a prime location. It's location was at the road which was PROMINENTLY used for travelling from Agra to Lahore. Later, as Mughal Empire weakended and more structures came, hence it was neglected.

BTW, Even Rajput rulers got their tombs constructed. So what's different in "present" case.. See those comments in the link i mentioned above on Page - 86 . You will understand better.

3.
As far as i know, Ruqayya Begum passed away in Agra ONLY. But she was buried in Kabul, at the Gardens of Babur.
For MUZ, she had her resting place at Sikandra near Akbar's tomb. She is Akbar's ONLY wife to have a resting place NEAR to him. On her wishes, a step-well / baoli was constructed by her son, Jahangir at this place.


> About Children, a new thread is coming soon. Hope you will wait.

> Links to all my threads are present in my signature below. I have 5 threads till now. Most of your doubts, PROBABLY, have been answered, in those threads already. Have a look. No issues in posting questions. 😊

Jodha Akbar is NOT Fiction - History Thread LinkS - Click Here

I find it eccentric that Akbar's other two favorite wives did not want to be buried side by side with him. One chose Kabul ,and one chose to construct it herself. The only wife buried closed to him was MUZ. People claim he was very close to Ruqaiya and Salima more than MUZ. They bring in several arguments, but it's funny if they were this close why did not they want to be buried beside with him? I am sure Akbar was vey fond of both Salima and Ruqu. I think there was a rough patch in Akbar and Ruqaiya relationship which left Ruqaiya feeling lonely. I think Ruqaiya felt little bit loneliness.She might have felt that the only way to erase this was to be buried along with her parents. Ruqaiya and Akbar I am sure closed a relationship, but at same time there might have been strained at one point. I think no matter how many woman came in Akbar's live, his relationship with MUZ was special. It must have been different that is why their story was preserved so well by the people through folktales and in the desert. There was something special with her which he did not share with any of his other wife. He must have been very fond of Salima and Ruqu. I am sure they were close, but with MUZ I feel she gave him a sense of belonging and something more stronger than with any of his other wives.😳

Originally posted by: Donjas

Regarding the tomb, one must also consider the circumstances at the time of MUZ's death. A counter reaction by fundamentalists had started after Akbar's death. These clerics were appalled by Akbar's liberalism and Din-e-elahi but they could do nothing about it. They tried to ever throw Akbar but were defeated.

Now, after Akbar's death, Jahangir had to be careful not to display too openly his Hindu origins. He did not want to give the clerics the opportunity to oppose him and bring someone more Islamic to the forefront as claimant to the throne. Jahangir was not a dare devil general with a magnetic personality like his father. He had reason to be cautious.

So, it is possible that Jahangir cremated his mother in Hindu tradition, then built a tomb so that the fundamentalists were kept quiet. Maybe he just put her ashes there.

Liked ur reasoning.That means MUZ died after Akbar, is that correct?I think i hv read in history-geek's thread that Jahangir used to respect the sentiments of his mother, but sad that this was not passed on to shahjahan😔

Originally posted by: history_geek

Hi Geeta,
Thank You for your appreciating words. Responding to this query, first, as this question has been asked TODAY in many PMs as well. And seems this is the query of many. 😊

1.
Yes, Man Singh defeated Mirza Hakim, in the Battle at Lahore.
Here is a brief description, of Man Singh and Mirza Hakim's 'encounter', including Man Singh's speech to Mirza Hakim, which demonstrates Man Singh's will-power and his loyalty to Akbar.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/100584186

Here is a better description about Mirza Hakim.
https://www.indiaforums.com/forum/post/98657498

The difference between Akbar and Mirza Hakim surfaced during the "Mughal-Uzbek Storm" (as it is said) in mid 1560's. Mirza Hakim was a young ruler of 12 years at this time. He attacked Lahore, entered Punjab. The reason given by Abul Fazl is that -> "Hakim came under the influence of some wicked men and became disobedient." And, there is more information provided for this incident. I am trying to understand what the exact matter was, as it was a very confusing description.😕 Will update soon. But, Akbar forgave Mirza Hakim this time, who fled back to Indus, when Akbar crossed Satluj river, as per Akbarnama.

I have not heard about any marriage talk between Hakim-Shivani, that too in 1562-63(as per serial). Mirza Hakim was 9-10 years old at this time. 😆

Also, I NEVER found / heard, that Shivani eloped. But, something about Tuhir Das, is in these 2 pages.
Page-28
Page-29


2.
There were NOT 1 BUT MANY compelling reasons for me to "doubt" about MUZ's last rites.
I have posted in detail in this thread also. See this link. You will find the reasons, why i said so. Page - 86. There are 3-4 comments in continuation.

About the soul talks in the serial - It is Jodha who COMES to Akbar's Tomb to see/meet him. See the first episode of Jodha Akbar aired on 18 June 2013. You will get it. They have mentioned it SPECIFICALLY as "Akbar ka Makbara".

Yes, MUZ's Tomb is near Akbar's in Sikandra. Less than half a km away. At that time(when it was constructed) MUZ's tomb was at a prime location. It's location was at the road which was PROMINENTLY used for travelling from Agra to Lahore. Later, as Mughal Empire weakended and more structures came, hence it was neglected.

BTW, Even Rajput rulers got their tombs constructed. So what's different in "present" case.. See those comments in the link i mentioned above on Page - 86 . You will understand better.

3.
As far as i know, Ruqayya Begum passed away in Agra ONLY. But she was buried in Kabul, at the Gardens of Babur.
For MUZ, she had her resting place at Sikandra near Akbar's tomb. She is Akbar's ONLY wife to have a resting place NEAR to him. On her wishes, a step-well / baoli was constructed by her son, Jahangir at this place.


> About Children, a new thread is coming soon. Hope you will wait.

> Links to all my threads are present in my signature below. I have 5 threads till now. Most of your doubts, PROBABLY, have been answered, in those threads already. Have a look. No issues in posting questions. 😊

Jodha Akbar is NOT Fiction - History Thread LinkS - Click Here

Correction:
MUZ's Tomb is less than half a kilometre away from Akbar's Tomb.

{ The member (below) has been to these tombs many times. } Thanx for the input. 😊

Well, what can I say but thank you for that detailed info.As the serial progresses I will be troubling u with new ones😃 Here is a hoping that the serial deosn't go completely unhistorical😛

Abhay when will u make the new post on Akbar's children

History Geek TFS so much info about MUZ and Akbar. Can u plz tell us about Fatehnama E Chittor and in which year this war with Chittor happened ? Also want to know one more thing if Mewar was captured by Sujamal as shown in the serial and did Akbar retaliated to that event. There is no information available about Sujamal on the internet too. Can u plz update about his ties with MUZ(Writing this name & not Jodha as the name isn't confirmed anywhere. Find it funny though that we have names of Jahangir's HINDU WIVES but not the name of Raja Bharmal's eldest daughter who rose to become the empress & that too in the Mughal Sultanate which is by itself something epic) after he left Amer.

Was there a tradition that the begum who gave birth to the heir apparent became the empress then how come Noorjahan became the empress in Jehangir's reign ?

I also think that MUZ couldn't be Christian as Aurangzeb would have no problems with her to do so much damage to the proofs, tampering with chronicles etc. Also, one more thing makes me think that MUZ was a hindu is that when the show started it is shown as Jalal having no mercy for just about anyone but he forgave Sharif-Ud-Din around 3-4 times which reflects the impact that MUZ had on Jalal.

There is one point that I simply am not agreeing on with u & KDR_81. Jehangir having 20 begums & Akbar who was expansioning the empire having only 8-9 begums. Don't find any logic in it

I think the serial has become truly fictional. First after her Marriage there was one Meena Bazaar held after which she celebrated Holi. Now she has played Holi a second time in Mathura and now they are showing anniversary celebration of Jalal & MUZ.

One more point is to be noted that she might have thought herself to be truly lucky to have a loving husband as Akbar as she might have known after Khusrau's blinding and her neice Manmati Bai's suicide and Khurram being brought up by Ruqaiyaa that the support that Akbar gave to Hindus will soon perish & Islam would return to its barbaric state sooner than later which eventually happened in approx 50 years after Akbar's death.

Just one more question. Do u think true love started between the two started between Akbar & MUZ as Salim took a long time 7yrs to come & in between more begums might have come in his life.

People seem to say that MUZ had only 1 child with Akbar so there love story isn't epic as assumed to be but people seem to forget that after the birth of a child she had to take more care of the baby & probably became the empress too so maybe had very little time to indulge in physical relationship. She was more of moral support & a true wife as being depicted in the serial which he needed pretty badly as he even couldn't trust even Ruqaiyaa completely later on. He had others for his physical needs. The story is epic in a different sense that people r thinking of. First love developing between people of different community & it was a political alliance only and add to that she hated him the most but getting the kind of support that only a true lover will give to his wife. Why would she survive for so long if she didn't had husband's support and everyone from her own community & most of the persons within the Mughal court too not happy with her for bowing down to a Hindu Empress. Also, when she came to the Mughal Empire the general public was in distress because of additional burden of various sorts of wrong practices & taxes. Also, women having no respect and add to that social reforms that even no Hindu ruler had done for the masses such as abolition of Sati & widow remarriage etc. I don't consider it as Hindu-Muslim friendship too as after Akbar there was no real friendship between Hindus & Muslims but only religious tolerance till Shah Jahan's reign.

Not even Jehangir was like that because of which Manmati Bai committed suicide.

Hey Abhay, thanks for the awesome info! 👍🏼

^^
@Tarun...
Will get back to your queries as well. Some of your questions will be answered automatically in the thread which will be posted. 😊

Originally posted by: Arieltabi

Abhay when will u make the new post on Akbar's children

Hi Ariel,
Doing it. Have been bombed with PMs as well. Is baar surely, going to upload it.
Kindly wait some days more. Have to do arrangements and 'brace up' before posting . 😉