Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan

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desichica

@desichica

Dazzler

Posted: 16 years ago

#41

Originally posted by: mango27
Thank you Desichica and Vibhishna............I think I not am so confused now after what you both have told me.

Thanks Again!!!!

You are most welcome dear😊...glad that every1 was able to help you out...i know i myself used to get confused bout this matter too...but discussing it always helps b/c every1 here has such wonderful details to offer that we are able to see from their POV too...which is y i think our RF is the BEST forum!!!!!😃

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desichica

@desichica

Dazzler

Posted: 16 years ago

#42

Originally posted by: Mandodari
I was thinking about this. You know, Ramji took the blame on himself with the agni pariksha. I am sure if Ramji had not asked for the agni pariksha tongues would have wagged (it would not have mattered that Sita was pure) and people would have said all kinds of rotten things about Sita. This sort of nonsense would have happened even now in the 21st century. Without the agni pariksha, many people even today would have said, "you know, who knows what "really" happened in the Ashoka Vatika with Ravan."
Poor Sita! By asking her to undergo agni pariksha Sita was proven to be pure and now it is Ramji that people are blaming for the agni pariksha. The focus shifted to Ramji with everyone going "how can he do that to her?"

This is strictly my opinion and I am no expert. It seems to me that Ramji shifted the focus of blame, gossip, and wrong judgments by people from Sita to himself to spare Sita of any more humiliation. I think that is the greatness of Ramji. It may seem harsh if you look only at the agni pariksha but if you see the big picture I see the greatness of Ramji. What do you guys think? Any one else feel the same way or am I way off base?

WELL said di....I have to agree with Chandraketu on the way u putting it also makes sense!!!! Our Lord is so ever-loving...that HE is ALWAYS ready to put HIMSELF in front of good people, no matter wut form the goodness has to come in!!!! Shree Ram has always been picturized with a bow & arrow ready at hand....& that is to represent that HE is always ready to destroy evil and come in the way of harm to help protect HIS devotees!!!!! Basically a representative as our PROTECTOR!!!! And I absolutely love the way Shree Ram has been depicted as!!!!

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#43

Originally posted by: Chandraketu
Now that you describe it that way, it very much makes sense. Just that the two things I've always had (and probably always will have) trouble with - one is the physical torture that one would have to go through walking barefoot through the fire (even assuming that Agni-dev protected her), and the other is the implication that even if Ravan (hypothetically) did do anything to her (like, say, Vedavati), that it's she, who would then be considered defiled. C Rajagopalacharya discusses this well in his abridged version of the Ramayan. Which is why I said earlier that I understand why Rama did this, but nonetheless, I do disagree with him, without blaming him for anything that happened.

For the record, I don't consider either Vedavati or Rambha to have been defiled - the only one in my book who was defiled was Ravan himself.

Ram does say that he knew for sure that nothing will happen to her and he believed in her chastity. I got thinking on these lines after reading some posts in some random desi forum. No, not India-forums but something else. I do not remember the name of this forum now. I was googling info on Ramayan and I got a link to this forum. I clicked on it. It seemed to be a forum where everything was discussed from politics, to itihass, to Bollywood and the latest fashion. One of the threads had this debate and they were debating 'was Seetha molested or not? It is just her word against Ravan's.' Now, the people of this forum were kinda decent so it was more of a simple discussion. However, there are many in this world who are not so decent as these folks. Even with the Agni pariksha she was the talked of very crudely by the dhobi. Without the Agni Pariksha, no matter what you say about Ravan being defiled, she would have been the center of really crude jokes among the illiterate and the educated but not so sophisticated people even to this day and age. Just multiply 1 dhobi times thousands or tens of thousands throughout the ages.

The agni pariksha put a stop to all that and the anger and harsh judgment fell on Ram. Very few people doubt Sita's integrity thanks to the agni pariksha. I started to wonder if Ram did that deliberately and took the bad name on himself so that Sita was spared. ⭐️ My argument sounds logical and a possibility to me. 😃 Or, maybe not and I am way over there in the left field somewhere. 😉😆 😍 This is just another (my) interpretation.

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#44

Originally posted by: Mandodari
I was thinking about this. You know, Ramji took the blame on himself with the agni pariksha. I am sure if Ramji had not asked for the agni pariksha tongues would have wagged (it would not have mattered that Sita was pure) and people would have said all kinds of rotten things about Sita. This sort of nonsense would have happened even now in the 21st century. Without the agni pariksha, many people even today would have said, "you know, who knows what "really" happened in the Ashoka Vatika with Ravan."
Poor Sita! By asking her to undergo agni pariksha Sita was proven to be pure and now it is Ramji that people are blaming for the agni pariksha. The focus shifted to Ramji with everyone going "how can he do that to her?"

This is strictly my opinion and I am no expert. It seems to me that Ramji shifted the focus of blame, gossip, and wrong judgments by people from Sita to himself to spare Sita of any more humiliation. I think that is the greatness of Ramji. It may seem harsh if you look only at the agni pariksha but if you see the big picture I see the greatness of Ramji. What do you guys think? Any one else feel the same way or am I way off base?

You're absolutely right about the what the people would have thought and about how false rumours and gossips spread way too fast. Without the Agni Pariksha, even now people would have spoken like the people of Ayodhya at that time. I agree with you completely.

And I agree with Chandra ji's comments about Ravan too.

It was difficult for both of them (Ram and Sita). It was totally unfortunate that Sita had to be kidnapped by Ravan. As I have said before, this is a forever debated topic. I had thought about it too. Here is my reasoning:

Ram and Sita are always praised as the eternal couple. He, the perfect man and she as the perfect woman. Ram loved Sita so dearly. He knew and understood her very well. Sita too was ever devoted to her husband always understanding and never blaming him for what had to do.

In Ram's position he had to do what he did. First, it was a total dishonour to him that Ravan had kidnapped her - taken her away when he still lived. Sita had been given in marriage to him and it was his duty to protect his wife, but due to various reasons he couldn't (I'm not blaming him at all - just putting down the facts). Sita had been totally alarmed by Maareech's screams and was concerned for her husband (understandable). Lakshman had to leave - she was so scared that she threatened to kill herself if anything happens to Ram. Ravan had planned it well. And all three of them fell a prey to it. No one can blame anyone else except Ravan. It was a disgrace on Ram - his family, his honour, his bravery - that he let Sita get captured. He fought the war, won it and rescued her. This way, he fulfilled his duty of protecting her and vindicated his honour.

But there still remained the fact that she had lived in another man's home. Though he loved her a lot and was sure that she was always true to him and Ravan could not have done anything to her. He knew that if Ravan ever dared to, she would have killed herself rather than let him do anything. But the society was ever doubtful. A woman who leaves her husband's house and stays elsewhere will never be trusted by the public even though she is blameless. Ram couldn't accept her right away. The society would have said that he was blinded by the love of a woman and he took her back even though she was true. So, to uphold his, his family's honour he told her that she is free to go anywhere she pleases and that he had done his duty of freeing her from Ravan's clutches. This any common man too would have done (in those times - it was necessary to uphold their self esteem and honour more than anything else). A prince and future king of a mighty country would have to set his standars much higher than a common man. Thus, when she heard such harsh words Sita decided to undergo the Agni Pariksha and prove the world she was spotless. Ram never doubted her and it was extreme agony for him to watch his beloved walk into the fire. He too was aware of the disgrace she was being submitted to but he was aware that it was necessary that she vindicated her own honour. If the general public was open minded - the problem would have ended then and there.

But no, the society (with not much literate people and a lot of people who were skeptical) was not satisfied at all. This led to Ram banishing Sita even when she was carrying his heir. When the people started talking that they have to tollerate their womenfolk (wifes and daughters-in-law) leave their house and expect to be accepted back again Ram couldn't tollerate anymore. He was the King of a country - he had to uphold the name and honour of the family, his race. He had to uphold the honour of the country and his people. He could not reason out with that one point - if any woman had ever spoken back to her husband and said that Sri Ram himself had accpeted a woman who lived in another's house and why can't you - that would have been the final disgrace. If this rumour travelled beyond the borders of his kingdom, what will the other countries think of his people, his race and his own conduct and that of his wife - won't they say (the common people again - who constantly look for some news to chew with) that perhaps the whole country was like this? Ram did not have an answer to this - the people had very conveniently forgotten Sita's chastity and endurance and had spoken only of the fact that she had lived in another man's palace. As a king his first and foremost duty was to his subjects. This was why he had to banish Sita, his beloved queen and wife. His agony over the separation was no less than hers.

Did Ram put the blame on himself willingly, consciously and wantedly? I have no answer to this. All I know was that he was conscious of the effects of this - he wont be able to see his wife again (till his subjects accept her), he might not be able crown his son (if a son was born) as king (I said might - when he had banished her he couldn't still contact or correspond with her at all - he wont know what happens to her at all) and since he had taken up a vow that he will mary only once in his life and his one and only wife was Sita, he will practically be heirless (If Kush and Luv had not turned up, Bharat would have been the next king and his sons kings after him - it would still be the rule of the Surya Vanshi) and if the future generations believed his wife to be pure (I'm sure he would have hoped for it) then the blame for banishing a chaste woman - his own wife - the very question asked "How could he do this to her?"

Sita was his wife - his responsibilty. She would always be his wife. But the Queen of Ayodhya must be accepted universally by all in the country. When such an insult (the people saying "Whatever it may have been - she had lived elsewhere") on her the people would have never accepted her whole heartedly as the queen. And Ram would never force his subjects to accpet Sita as the queen against their wishes.

As for Sita, she couldn't help the turn of events either. She understood why her husband took such a decision but that only served to make the agony more painful. She was sinless but she had to bear the shame, pain and torture.

Sita's conduct was most glorious during her captivity but also the most controversial (in those times). Some people have to suffer more than their share because their suffering is not witnessed, not observable and not appreciated. (These words, I have copied word to word from a book - The Story of Rama - Narendra K. Sinha). The people did not ask whether she should be rewarded for her conduct but instead asked shouldn't she be punished for it (living in another's home). The decision of the King was inherent in this attitude of his people. The king, in this matter, was helpless. He had no choice.

So, the couple sacrificed themselves for the public opinion and to uphold the honour of not only the family but also the whole country.

I hope all this makes sense and its not too winding. I've just put down all my reasonings regarding this issue. Hence, for these reasons - I couldn't blame Ram for it - he suffered by this too. Thus, I decided to just take it as it was presented - an unfortunate incident, though it did good to the world had sacrificed the happiness, peace and the life of a couple who should have lived and enjoyed their life to the fullest.

If there are any points I have missed or if there is any other explanations (for or against) please share it with me.

Sorry for delaying this post - I've been trying to post it for quite a long time but again was delayed by technical troubles.

Edited by Vibhishna - 16 years ago

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#45

Also, Sita too did her duty before she entered the depths of the earth. Though she didn't want to live bearing the agony of separation and the shame of the false rumours spread about her, she lived for the sake of Ram's child she bore. Again, as his wife, she made sure he had an heir. She bore his sons, brought them up well and then left the earth (went into the earth) after handing them over to Ram. The other reason was that she had lost the will to live anymore - her task was done - she had brought up two lovely boys and had handed them over to her husband. She did not want to tollerate anymore by living longer.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#46

Vibs

It's not long winded at all, but it does steal the thunder from later discussions about Sita's vanvas. I therefore prefer to table this part of the discussion for later, otherwise by the time we see all that, there'll be nothing left to discuss.

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purvi

@coolpurvi

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#47

Great explanation Chandra, Mandodari, Sunithi, Vibhishna. So great we have such talented scholars in this forum

I just want to add few words here. We all have heard many people sayng in love " i love u more than my own life"

But Lord Ram loved Sita not only nore than his life but also more than his own honour n image. He knew that now after Agni pariksha n second exile Sita no will ever doubt her purity but world will blame him for being so unjust n uncaring towards her. Had he not done that people wud have cracked dirty jokes on her. Imagine waht kalyug people wud hav thought had He not done that. But Sita's honour n image was more important to Lord Ram more than His own honour n image. I agree with Mandodari that by doing so Ramji shifted the focus of blame, gossip, and wrong judgments by people from Sita to himself to spare Sita of any more humiliation.

Edited by coolpurvi - 16 years ago

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#48

Originally posted by: Chandraketu
Vibs

It's not long winded at all, but it does steal the thunder from later discussions about Sita's vanvas. I therefore prefer to table this part of the discussion for later, otherwise by the time we see all that, there'll be nothing left to discuss.

I agree Chandra ji. I thought this topic had always been discussed and hence I posted my views. We can always see the episodes after knowing the details. Anyway, what you say is right. Let's wait till we see the episodes. I think we'll get new doubts by then.

Edited by Vibhishna - 16 years ago

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akhl

@akhl

Dazzler

Posted: 16 years ago

#49

Originally posted by: Chandraketu
one is the physical torture that one would have to go through walking barefoot through the fire (even assuming that Agni-dev protected her)

Agnidev must have made fire cool for Sita.😊

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#50

Originally posted by: coolpurvi
Great explanation Chandra, Mandodari, Sunithi, Vibhishna. So great we have such talented scholars in this forum

I just want to add few words here. We all have heard many people sayng in love " i love u more than my own life"

But Lord Ram loved Sita not only nore than his life but also more than his own honour n image. He knew that now after Agni pariksha n second exile Sita no will ever doubt her purity but world will blame him for being so unjust n uncaring towards her. Had he not done that people wud have cracked dirty jokes on her. Imagine waht kalyug people wud hav thought had He not done that. But Sita's honour n image was more important to Lord Ram more than His own honour n image. I agree with Mandodari that by doing so Ramji shifted the focus of blame, gossip, and wrong judgments by people from Sita to himself to spare Sita of any more humiliation.

Thanks Purvi. Yeah, just recently Bhajji and Mona Singh did a Ravan Sita dance. I read it in the news. I heard that many people were very upset. I also heard it was done as a joke but it implies Ravan and Sita had some fun in Ashoka Vatika. I was just thinking, after reading the views on the forum and after hearing about this dance, "What would have happened to Sita's honor, self-esteem, and sense of self if Ramji had not asked for the Agni Pariksha?

Just imagine the gossip in the forums, Bhajji/Mona Singh type of dances, double entendre type of humor, saas shouting at her bahu if she suspects her bahu of something (Sita did it long time ago and now I have a bahu who is doing the same thing kind of dialogues or something like who knows what Sita actually did in the Vatika for a year), and downright crude and nasty jokes all unleashed on Sita throughout the ages.

Now the majority of the anger is directed towards Ramji. I personally think that Ram avataar was the greatest among all the avaatars. No offense to any other avataar because anything Vishnuji does is great. 😃

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Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 5

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