~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 79

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Found something while reading Harivamsa

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Now, hear of the other descendants of AjamIDha. He begot sushAnti on his wife nIlini. From sushAnti was born puru-jAti from whom vAhyAshva is born. The latter had five sons resembling the immortals. They were mudgala, sR^i~njaya, bR^ihad-iShuH, yavInara and the fifth one is the powerful kR^imila-ashva...

Other reading: sushAnti is termed as puru-hèti who begot bahu-ashva; with va ba yoH abhedaH, the above vAhyAshva will become bahvashva, whose sons are the above five.

...

These five have become the protective lords of the pa~ nchAla province consisting of prosperous villages and their province came to be called as pa~nchAla because their father asserted – p~ncha alam; five enough; meaning pa~nchAnAm deshAnAm rakshaNe alam; five of my sons are enough to protect the province...

...

mudgala's progeny is called the highly illustrious maudgalyA-s, who are all noble, twice-born and abided by the duties of kshatriya-s... and these are called as kANwa-maudgalyA-s as they took the side of a~Ngirasa...

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mudgala's eldest son is the highly illustrious brahma-saint, who through lady indra-sena, the daughter of nala, begot vadhyashva, vadhya ashva... vadhyashva begot twins on the celestial courtesan menaka... we have heard so... one of them is the royal saint divodasa and the other is the illustrious lady ahalya...

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_32.html

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So Maudgalya was Kanwa Maudgalya on the side of Angirasa. ie, likely Panchali's bio family since MBh keeps saying Angirasa is Agni.

Fun thing is Maudgalya was married to lady Indrasena, daughter of Nala - ?Nalayani from southern version who was Panchali?

Also, to note: Panchali's maid was called Indrasena at least twice that I know of (once during Jayadrath incident and once before incognito stay)

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I haven't drawn any conclusions. Putting it out there for debate.

Someone please comment on this. Does this give any insight on Draupadi's bio family

Originally posted by: Chiillii

More about Shurasena Vasudev Kansa below

Shurasena was a proper king. Only problem was unlike other kingdoms the sons of kroshtu did not split and form their own kingdoms. But tried to take over the same kingdom for their family.

For eg. Sibi divided his large kingdom into separate entities for his 5 sons to form Kekaya Madra Sindhu Sauvira and eldest inherited the main region Sibi.

Here Vrishnis four sons (shurasen family, satyaki (sini) family, satyabhama family and akrura family) Andhaka's two sons (ugrasen/ kamsa family and Devaka/devaki family) and Bhajamana's sons (single mahabhoja family) were all fighting for the throne of Mathura.

Probably mathura was too small to be split into decent kingdoms. Though Bhojas themselves do develop mrittikavati as their personal territory.

So Shurasen's family ruled Mathura, he had a bhoja wife from whom he had 4 daughters, married to kings I mentioned. Then he marries Naga chief aryaka's daughter marisha and has vasudev and kunti. Here a fall out happens between Bhoja and Shurasen as now a naga son Vasudev was going to get the throne instead of a bhoja heir. Ugrasen who was waiting in the wings, with Bhojas support as well as Akrura, satyabhama's family and his own brother Devaka organizes a coup and takes over the throne. He becomes king.

Vasudev is chased out and with whatever money he has starts cattle business and becomes succesful. But he wants the throne back.

He first marries bahlika princess rohini and then with the help of satyaka kidnaps Devaki and her sisters and marries them.all.

Kansa is the crown prince at this time. Initially Kansa doesnt realise what is happening, and is ok. He himself is married to jarasandh's daughters.

But then Vasudev through Narada leaks the story that Kansa is a rape child and does not belong to Ugrasen. And starts political maneouvres with other families to get himself declared the rightful heir

Ugrasen disowns Kansa. Kansa is furious. And he Places Ugrasen and Vasudev + Devaki in house arrest.

THen 6 out of 7 daughters of Devaka miscarry. Which is again used by Vasudev as propaganda that Kansa killed them and when 7th survives it is sent to Vrindavan with rohini and her son balram as well. And a floats a rumor that Kansa is killing all children born at the same time as his son. That he is evil etx. Kansa then decides enough is enough and throws Vasudev into prison. And goes after his sons to kill them.

U want 2 say kansa was some saint kind of person & vasudev d devil was maligning his image so kans imprisoned him & infact it was vasudev who killed his sons not kansa.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Do you mean to say that Kansa didn't kill the kids? Now this is a heart breaker

I dont think Kansa killed the children.

Kansa was not a stupid guy. Easiest option for Kansa was not let the children be born at all. Separate Devaki and her sisters from Vasudev.

Why let them be together, get them to have kids and then kill the kids and become.evil in the eyes of everyone. And no you dont love your sister and then kill her children. Easy way is bring the sister home and keep her away from the husband

He found Vasudev trying political.networking. against him.Telling everyone including ugrasena that Kansa is not a yadaav by blood and unfit for throne, as compared to him who was atleast shurasen's son even if born to an ordinary naga woman. So he simply puts him and his dad under house arrest so they cant meet other family heads. He doesnt kill his father or vasudev or devaki and his sisters.

He only goes after Krishna after he has already been accused child killer by Vasudev.

Most importantly Devaki's sisters are mentioned having sons, with names but those sons are never mentioned again. Same with Devaki, her 6 sons are mentioned with names and that they were killed by Kansa. They all were the same 6 kids who were still born. Or died immediately after birth.

This is common in puranas. Every guy has several sons but they exist only in names. Other example being Balram's two sons Ulmuka and Nishata

We have Mahabharat, Vishnu Purana, Srimad Bhagvatham, Harivansh. Four major books, but other than their names just once saying they were born, these two boys are non existent. i.e. dead in infancy or childhood.

What TV serials and devotional.plays do is show only one woman Devaki as wife. Omit the sisters

Aside if they were all from same family wouldn't Devak's daughter be paternal cousin (parallel) to Vasudev. Such marriages aren't permitted I thought.

Devaka's daughters were sisters only for Kansa. He was the actual paternal cousin. The families had split into diiferent houses couple.of generations earlier. Vasudev was Vrishni Yadava and Devaki was Andhaka Yadava. Distant enough for marriage. In any case Shurasen himself had a bhoja wife. The third family group.

By the way Krishna a vrishni-andhaka marries a vrishni satyabhama. As well as another vrishni akrura's sister. While.his daughter charumati marries Bhoja Bali.

So intermarriages were common

But still Kansa was a king, was he that bad at propoganda management that he couldn't even manage stopping a fake rumour against him? Instead actually started behaving in the way that others think him evil?

By the way according to religious scriptures, what exactly were his crimes before the Akashwani that he was declared a sinner? Most of his crimes were after this if I am not mistaken

Meanwhile we reached 100 pages

Can we reach 150

1. If Kunti sent the child to his father, the father who already said he didn't want anything to do with the baby could've easily tossed him out. And Athirath is actually stated to be childless when he encounters the basket. It is more likely that Kunti somehow contacted the prince's family (or Durvasa did). Perhaps they arranged for Athiratha to adopt Karna. I do think Karna was the eldest there.

2. Kunti had a swayamvara for the same reason Panchali had a swayamvara. Hers too was a political alliance which was fixed long before by Vyasa and Drupada. So why the swayamvara? Why not simply invite the Pandavas back and have a grand wedding?

Swayamvara is also meant to be a show of money and the strength of the eventual alliance.

Kuntibhoj was said to be childless. That gave HIM a reason to adopt. Shurasena had to have his own reasons. He needed an alliance with the Kurus.

Re: other yadava princesses being married to royal families... none like the Kurus with their purple blood.

Kansa committed absolutely no crimes till the akashwani. He was good guy till then. He did not even know that he was a rape child till Narada announced it to the world.

It was Ugrasen who took the throne by getting all the other clans to support him. Kansa being eldest simply inherited it.

But he did try to kill Krishna a child and sent assassins after him..

He did not try to kill Ugrasen or Vasudev or Devaki though

Initially placed under house arrest and later put them in jail.

It was Narada who drove him towards evil. Being nice guy in front of him but destroying his credibility behind the scenes

It was Narada who convinced him to kill Vasudev's son

Vasudev on the other hand tried to get back the throne that belonged to his father.

Though not in a straight forward way but using Narada to paint Kansa as illegitimate and evil.

Also he did kidnap Nanda's daughter to pass of as his own in place of Krishna.

But the child was not killed. She survived and lived in Mathura. Whether Kansa spared her or Vasudev rescued her we dont know.

But she did.grow up in Mathura. She was called Eknamsa.

But Vasudev had nothing to do with Kunti's plight. He did not give her away to kuntibhoj and I really cant see what he could have done to help her unless she contacted him to be taken away from Kuntibhoj and he refused. But I dont think that happened.

@DeepikaGupta

Kamsa was no saint. He sent assassin after assassin to kill Krishna. But surely we don't believe he was so dumb as to not know that the easiest way to "kill" Devaki's children was to put her and Vasudeva in separate cells?😆 Those 7 infant deaths were highly unlikely to be Kamsa's doing. Propaganda is all.

Vasudeva was no devil. But he did manipulate things pretty well. Heck, even after Kamsa was deposed, it was Vasudeva's son with his favorite wife who got to rule (though without crown). Balram called the shots in Dwaraka. Poor Krishna was accused at least twice of being a thief and a murderer by the Yadavas. When Salwa attacked, his own family wouldn't help fight except Pradyumna and (I think) Samba.

The TV show depictions of Yadavas as a cheerful clan are so far from the truth. They were greedy and murderous, even more so than the other major lines in Aryavarta.

@Chili

Perhaps Vasudeva had nothing to do with Kunti's adoption. Perhaps Vasudeva was much older than Kunti and DID have a hand in the adoption

Didn't matter. She blamed Shurasena, definitely, and I believe also Vasudeva in her conversation with Krishna.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

But still Kansa was a king, was he that bad at propoganda management that he couldn't even manage stopping a fake rumour against him? Instead actually started behaving in the way that others think him evil?

By the way according to religious scriptures, what exactly were his crimes before the Akashwani that he was declared a sinner? Most of his crimes were after this if I am not mistaken

He surely did his own propaganda. But he lost. So we don't know what his stories were.