~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 77

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Few facts

Adhirath and his ancestors were not surya vanshi. They were Paurava Chandravanshi

One of the puru lines came all the way to Raudrashwa whose wife was apsara ghritachi. Not the wife of pramati. Two of his eventual descendents were Ushinara and Kaksheyu

Ushinara's son Shibi had 5 sons who established Sivi kaikeya Madra Sindhu and Sauvira in the north west

Second Kaksheyu had a son Bali whose 5 sons established Anga Vanga Paudra Sushma and Kalinga in south east

Lineage after Bali is same as provided by hear me.roar

Also Romapada's son in law rishyaringa helped suryavanshi dasrath get 4 sons. So the Anga chandravanshi kingdom had friendly relations with Kasi and Kosala kingdoms who were suryavnshi.

Coming to Kansa

Kansa was biological son of Drumila King of Sauba, he was most likely son of Salwa King of Sauba of the Amba Bhishma fame. He would go on to have a legal biological son named Salwa after his grandfather who attacks Dwarka as revenge against killing of his step brother kansa and friend Shishupal.

Like I mentioned before anyone not willing to worship vishnu was classified as Asur or born of Asur.

Magadha and their vassals were strongly against Vishnu worship. They worshipped shiva and some of their allies worshipped Devi.

So Drumila Kansa Bhauma Jarasandh Bana etc become Asur or asur incarnations.

That was massive political propaganda going on

Thankyou for the response.

@Bold I guess this clears it then, Adhirath wasn't biologically related to Karna, unless the Suryaputra thing was a pure lie by Kunti.

About Kansa. Even if he was biologically the son of someone, he was legally adopted by Ugrasen, so he definitely was the contender of the throne.

And then why did he realise that he must kill Devaki's sons only after her marriage. Prior to that, she definitely was someone beloved to Kansa. ..

What is your inputs on the rest of the points we discussed, why did Balramji train Dury despite the latter having had fought against them

@HearMeRoar was Hastinapur a vassal of Magadh? From whatever I have heard, HP n Panchal were still independent and not under Jarasangh till then (that's why Mathura requested for support, they couldn't have expected it from a vassal state of their enemy)

I think Chhedi, Madra, Banasur (which state did he rule though) etc. were his vassals

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

THIS!!!👏

Karna was an extremely intelligent man and willing to do whatever it took. Instead of focusing on his strengths which went way beyond his archery, they prefer to focus on an idiotic sob story.

Agreed. He was a great politician, awesome negotiator his archery skills were much smaller than these skills. Those should be actually highlighted not this non existent sob story

Shurasen was king of Mathura. But other than his cousin Sini no one stood by him as his throne was snatched from him by Andhaka Yadava brothers Ugrasen and Devaka. He had likely two wives, A Bhoja yadava princess sister of Hridika who had only daughters and naga chief Aryaka's daughter Marisha whose children were pritha (kunti) and vasudev.

A young pritha had to be given to Kuntibhoj as political expediency, at that point kuntibhoj had no children. So I believe he was planning to use Kunti to get a grandson through her to rule his kingdom. Like Manipur king Chitravahan took his daughter chitrangada's son as his heir.

However Kuntibhoj had a son of his own soon after but adoption cannot be cancelled so he let pritha be his daughter kunti, but she was no longer cared for and rather put on brahmana service duty for rishis like Durvasa.

Durvasa however took pity on her and took her as a student. Dharma shastras, basic education and politics and other stuff that a queen should know. You can see her knowledge in the way she speaks to Pandu and later her message through krishna to her sons for war. Maybe even how to please men. Just so that atleast she could land herself a good king as a husband. She however was a little kid who had not even started her periods yet.

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Thankyou for the response.

@Bold I guess this clears it then, Adhirath wasn't biologically related to Karna, unless the Suryaputra thing was a pure lie by Kunti.

About Kansa. Even if he was biologically the son of someone, he was legally adopted by Ugrasen, so he definitely was the contender of the throne.

And then why did he realise that he must kill Devaki's sons only after her marriage. Prior to that, she definitely was someone beloved to Kansa. ..

What is your inputs on the rest of the points we discussed, why did Balramji train Dury despite the latter having had fought against them

@HearMeRoar was Hastinapur a vassal of Magadh? From whatever I have heard, HP n Panchal were still independent and not under Jarasangh till then (that's why Mathura requested for support, they couldn't have expected it from a vassal state of their enemy)

I think Chhedi, Madra, Banasur (which state did he rule though) etc. were his vassals

Since Dasharatha is known to be suryvanshi, I don't see how Athi-ratha, a descendant of his, becomes chandravanshi.

chitra-ratha's son is → dasha-ratha, aka loma-pAda, aka roma-pAda, whose daughter is shAnta, who is given to the son of sage vibhANDaka, namely sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga; dasha-ratha’s son is → catura~Nga whose descent is at the grace of sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga, who conducted a vedic ritual called putra-kAmeShTi on behalf of dasha-ratha to effectuate the birth of chatura~na; from chatura~Nga → pR^ithula-akSha → champa; this king champa’s capital is champA-puri, aka mAlini-puri; he begot one prince called harya~Nga at the grace of a sage called pUrNa-bhadra; the son of sage vibhANDaka, namely sage R^ishyashR^i~Nga, fetched the elephant-vehicle of indra, namely airAvata, as an elephant-vehicle for this harya~Nga, just by incantatory hymns... this king squares with indra, so to say...

This is the patriline from harya~Nga → bR^ihat-karmA → bR^ihad-darbha → bR^ihat-manAH → jayadratha → dR^iDha-ratha → vishvajit → karNa → vikarNa who begot a hundred sons that have augmented a~Nga dynasty...

bR^ihat-darbha’s son is bR^ihat-mana whose two wives are the princesses from chaidya province, namely lady yasho-devi and lady satya, owing to whom there occurred a twofold divergence of that dynasty...

O king janamejaya, king jayadratha is born of lady yashodevi. And from lady satya is born the celebrated king vijaya, who by his equanimity of mind and other qualities is superior to the brAhmaNa-s and by heroism and other accomplishments, is superior to the kshatriya-s...

vijaya's son is dhR^iti whose son is dhR^ita-vrata. His son is the highly illustrious satya-karma...

The son of satya-vrata through a brAhmaNa lady is a sUta - because of the rule: brAhmaNyAm kshatriya jAtaH sUta iti abhidhIyate -

and this mighty chariot-warrior draws the suffix of ratha in his name from the very same dynasty of kshatriya-s with –ratha suffix, and he is called athi-ratha, who later adopted the son of lady kunti, namely karNa as his son. It is therefore karNa is called the son of a charioteer... the family of the highly powerful karNa has thus been described. karNa's son is vR^iSha-sena whose son is vR^iSha...

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Kamsa had imprisoned Ugrasena and made himself king. So we can safely assume his position was not otherwise secure. Devaki was Ugrasena's niece, and Vasudev was his nephew. Kamsa was very likely getting rid of competition.

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http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_55.html

I am aware the jarA-sandha has become the head of all kings;

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/vishnuparva/hv_2_034.html

rompted by his two dear daughters, who were wives of the valiant (kaMsa), the powerful jarAsaMdha arrived at mathurA.

...

jarAsamdha was accompanied by all the kings who were under his power, friends, relatives and acquaintances along with their armies.

...

They were powerful, valiant and great. They did what jarAsaMdha liked. dantavaktra of kArUSha and the valiant king of chedi,

...

the ruler of kAli~Nga, paundraka the great among the strong, the cunning kaushika and the king of men bhIShmaka,

...

also rukmi, the son of bhIShmaka, the foremost of the bowmen, who was interested in fighting with vAsudeva and arjuna in the great war,

...

kaushalya, the king of kAshi, the ruler of dashArNa, sukheshvara, the valiant ruler of videha,

...

the king of mAdra, the powerful ruler of trigartas, the king shAlva, the valiant and powerful darada,

...

the ruler of yavana, the valiant bhagadatta, the king of sauvIra, shaibya, the great among powerful pANDya,

...

subala, the king of gAndhAra, the powerful nagnajit, gonarda the king of kAshmIr, the ruler of darada, the powerful sons of dhR^itarAShtra starting with duryodhana,

...

and many other powerful and great kings opposing janArdana (kR^iShNa) accompanied jarAsaMdha.

^^^ Yes Duryodhan did support Jarasangh in one of the wars, but that would be a later one, because in the first one Mathura does approach Hastinapur for support

Anyhow as it is mentioned above it were not only Jarasangh's subsidiary kings who supported him, but also his allies. Aside Jarasangh was a Samrat not a Chakravarti Samrat. There would definitely had been many states which weren't under his dominance

Hastinapur definitely would have been interested in getting into good books of Magadh and avoiding any enimity from them. I think they supported as an ally state and not a subsidiary

Because the reason we say that Eklavya was punished was because it was from an expected enemy state of Magadh, now if Magadh was the overlord Hastinapur, they wouldn't have done this

Found something while reading Harivamsa

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Now, hear of the other descendants of AjamIDha. He begot sushAnti on his wife nIlini. From sushAnti was born puru-jAti from whom vAhyAshva is born. The latter had five sons resembling the immortals. They were mudgala, sR^i~njaya, bR^ihad-iShuH, yavInara and the fifth one is the powerful kR^imila-ashva...

Other reading: sushAnti is termed as puru-hèti who begot bahu-ashva; with va ba yoH abhedaH, the above vAhyAshva will become bahvashva, whose sons are the above five.

...

These five have become the protective lords of the pa~ nchAla province consisting of prosperous villages and their province came to be called as pa~nchAla because their father asserted – p~ncha alam; five enough; meaning pa~nchAnAm deshAnAm rakshaNe alam; five of my sons are enough to protect the province...

...

mudgala's progeny is called the highly illustrious maudgalyA-s, who are all noble, twice-born and abided by the duties of kshatriya-s... and these are called as kANwa-maudgalyA-s as they took the side of a~Ngirasa...

...

mudgala's eldest son is the highly illustrious brahma-saint, who through lady indra-sena, the daughter of nala, begot vadhyashva, vadhya ashva... vadhyashva begot twins on the celestial courtesan menaka... we have heard so... one of them is the royal saint divodasa and the other is the illustrious lady ahalya...

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_32.html

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So Maudgalya was Kanwa Maudgalya on the side of Angirasa. ie, likely Panchali's bio family since MBh keeps saying Angirasa is Agni.

Fun thing is Maudgalya was married to lady Indrasena, daughter of Nala - ?Nalayani from southern version who was Panchali?

Also, to note: Panchali's maid was called Indrasena at least twice that I know of (once during Jayadrath incident and once before incognito stay)

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I haven't drawn any conclusions. Putting it out there for debate.

Hear me roar...

Anga king was Romapada there is a mistake here which calls him dasaratha. The translation in english from sanskrit is wrong.

The correct translation is chitratha's son was Romapada, whose daughter was Shanta married to Rishyashringa, the one who conducted the putrakameshti yagya of Dasratha (of Ayodhya for birth of his sons Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata, Shatrughana) who had a son chaturanga whose son was prithula and so on.

Dasaratha is not from the Anga family. He is king of Ayodhya whose yagya was done by Romapada's son in law rishyashringa to get four sons.

Valmiki ramayana clarifies this further. That Dasrath was childless so he asks his friend Romapada king of Anga to send his son in law Rishyashringa to Ayodhya to officiate on the putrakameshti yagya which he does and then the Rama and his brothers are born to his three wives.

Shanta and Rishyashringa (he was son of rishi vibhandhaka as mentioned above) had a son Chaturanga who continued the lineage for Romapada in Anga.

Lineage is Chitratha - Romapada - Shanta (daughter) - Chaturanga (daughter's son adopted as heir) - prithula - haryanga and so on.

Chitratha himself descended from Anga who was son of Bali, who was son of Kiksheyu who was son of Usinara a descendent of Puru the son of Yayati and same as main line puru descendents at Hastinapur.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Hear me roar...

Anga king was Romapada there is a mistake here which calls him dasaratha. The translation in english from sanskrit is wrong.

The correct translation is chitratha's son was Romapada, whose daughter was Shanta married to Rishyashringa, the one who conducted the putrakameshti yagya of Dasratha (of Ayodhya for birth of his sons Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata, Shatrughana) who had a son chaturanga whose son was prithula and so on.

Dasaratha is not from the Anga family. He is king of Ayodhya whose yagya was done by Romapada's son in law rishyashringa to get four sons.

Valmiki ramayana clarifies this further. That Dasrath was childless so he asks his friend Romapada king of Anga to send his son in law Rishyashringa to Ayodhya to officiate on the putrakameshti yagya which he does and then the Rama and his brothers are born to his three wives.

Shanta and Rishyashringa (he was son of rishi vibhandhaka as mentioned above) had a son Chaturanga who continued the lineage for Romapada in Anga.

Lineage is Chitratha - Romapada - Shanta (daughter) - Chaturanga (daughter's son adopted as heir) - prithula - haryanga and so on.

Chitratha himself descended from Anga who was son of Bali, who was son of Kiksheyu who was son of Usinara a descendent of Puru the son of Yayati and same as main line puru descendents at Hastinapur.

IIRC, Shanta was Dasaratha's daughter who was adopted by Romapada, then married to Rishyashringa who then did the Putrakameshti for Dasaratha.

So bloodline would definitely be Dasaratha's, but yeah,. legally Anga kings would have no connection.

Caveat: I have only superficial familiarity with Ramayana, so might be remembering folktales re: Shanta being Rama's sister.

My posts are too long so they are getting cut.

Part 2 of Kunti Karna is below

Now Kunti trained by Durvasa, just attains her puberty. So must be around 11 or 12. A visiting prince from Kasi or Kosala catches her fancy. She gets more friendly with him than she should. Mostly because she is alone and has no one talk to.

The guy rapes her. Finally Durvasa's training of politics helps her. She understands the precarious situation she and her future child is in. She negotiates / tricks / cajoles the prince to give her the identity markers Kavach and kundal and keep the rape a secret.

The dumb prince agrees. Kunti has the baby in secret. She can because Kuntibhoj has kept her isolated as is. Once the baby is born, she gets her nanny to leave the baby with the prince's family who has returned back at his home and vanish.

The prince is stuck because now he has a baby with family heirlooms.but no mother. And he did not tell anyone that he raped kunti. Kunti goes about as nothing has happened and she is a virgin.

The prince probably is married and has son of his own, doesnt want complications so secretly gives his baby for adoption to Anga prince Adhirath who is charioteering to survive. He gives a lot of money as well to sweeten the deal. Adhirath has sons of his own by the way. And I dont think Karna was oldest amongst them

There was no DnA testing in that era.

Kunti saves herself from abandonement and ostracisation and hopes that the son would live with his father. That the prince turns out to be a cad and gives the child for adoption is not her fault.

And till her own sons become the only living descendents of kuru, she was at the mercy of Bhishma Dhritrashtra etc for legitimacy. Her acknowledging Karna would ruin the lives of her other 5 sons, who did not belong to Pandu biologically. So she smartly kept her mouth shut.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

My posts are too long so they are getting cut.

Part 2 of Kunti Karna is below

Now Kunti trained by Durvasa, just attains her puberty. So must be around 11 or 12. A visiting prince from Kasi or Kosala catches her fancy. She gets more friendly with him than she should. Mostly because she is alone and has no one talk to.

The guy rapes her. Finally Durvasa's training of politics helps her. She understands the precarious situation she and her future child is in. She negotiates / tricks / cajoles the prince to give her the identity markers Kavach and kundal and keep the rape a secret.

The dumb prince agrees. Kunti has the baby in secret. She can because Kuntibhoj has kept her isolated as is. Once the baby is born, she gets her nanny to leave the baby with the prince's family who has returned back at his home and vanish.

The prince is stuck because now he has a baby with family heirlooms.but no mother. And he did not tell anyone that he raped kunti. Kunti goes about as nothing has happened and she is a virgin.

The prince probably is married and has son of his own, doesnt want complications so secretly gives his baby for adoption to Anga prince Adhirath who is charioteering to survive. He gives a lot of money as well to sweeten the deal. Adhirath has sons of his own by the way. And I dont think Karna was oldest amongst them

There was no DnA testing in that era.

Kunti saves herself from abandonement and ostracisation and hopes that the son would live with his father. That the prince turns out to be a cad and gives the child for adoption is not her fault.

And till her own sons become the only living descendents of kuru, she was at the mercy of Bhishma Dhritrashtra etc for legitimacy. Her acknowledging Karna would ruin the lives of her other 5 sons, who did not belong to Pandu biologically. So she smartly kept her mouth shut.

Agree with most except bold.

Because Surya actually tells Kunti the child is not his responsibility before he leaves. My feeling is Kunti contacted said prince's family via Durvasa, and family arranged Athiratha to adopt the baby.

Having a wife and child wouldn't have stopped the prince from marrying Kunti - 2 possibilities. 1) He was betrothed to a princess from a bigger family and certainly wouldn't want the heir to come from a lower level princess of Kuntibhoj. 2) Kunti was expected to marry Pandu, swayamvar or not. Perhaps that was one of the reasons behind her adoption. She would officially be kshatriya and could marry Pandu, this creating an alliance between Kurus and Yadavas. One of the things HV mentions are the 3 families where gods supposedly took birth - Kuru, Panchala, and Yadava.