~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 78

No Ramayana and Vishnupurana are more clear on this.

Dasratha had 350 wives but had no children, Romapada had no son. He had a daughter though Santa. There is a drought in Anga and land is barren. so he gets his daughter married to Rishi Vibhandhaka's son rishyashringa who does some yagya and rains fall and Anga becomes green and fertile again.

He kind of becomes famous as guy who can do miracles..can make rains.happen, has gods under control types.

So dasratha requests his friend Romapada, pls send him.to me as well to do yagya for me. So I can have sons. Romapada then sends him.to do yagya.

The son of Anga was Pára 13; his son was Divaratha; his son was Dharmaratha 14; his son was Chitraratha; his son was Romapáda 15, also called Daśaratha, to whom, being childless, Daśaratha, the son of Aja, gave his daughter Śántá to be adopted 16. After this, Romapáda had a son named Chaturanga; his son was Prithuláksha; his son was Champa, who founded the city of Champá 17. The son of Champa was Haryyanga; his son was Bhadraratha, who had two sons, Vrihatkarman and Vrihadratha. The son of the first was Vrihadbhánu 18; his son was Vrihanmanas; his son was Jayadratha, who, by a wife who was the daughter of a Kshatriya father and Brahmani mother, had a son named Vijaya 19;

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his son was Dhriti; his son was Dhritavrata; his son was Satyakarman; his son was Adhiratha 20, who found Karna in a basket on the banks of the Ganges, where he had been exposed by his mother, Pritha. The son of Karńa was Vrishasena 21. These were the Anga kings. You shall next hear who were the descendants of Puru.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp111.htm

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What am I reading wrong here? It still sounds like Dasaratha gave Santha to Romapada for adoption.

Actually Valmiki Ramayana doesn't specifically states that Shanta was the daughter of Dashrath.

It is however mentioned that once Rishyashringa reach Ayodhya, all the queens of Dashrath hug and cajole her cry seeing her because they met her after ages. Now such behaviour is definitely motherly affectionate, but still we can't be 100% sure she was actually Dashrath's biological daughter. The daughter thing is from some folklore I guess

Anyhow even if she was the daughter of Dashrath, her children wouldn't be called Suryavanshis, they would still be Chandravanshis, so would be Adhirath

If Karna wasn't the eldest son, then why didn't Adhirath or Radha try to make their elder biological sons the king! Karna was raised to get back his family land, he couldn't have become the manipulator he was if he wasn't trained for it, why didn't Adhirath then his biological elder sons for this? I think he was the eldest. Adhirath and Radha when reached Dhritrashtra, only had Karna with them, the other sons were probably born later

Kunti's not revealing the truth is something definitely understandable, but we couldn't call it a ideal approach at max we might say it was the best she could do then

I did find something.

The initiatory rites requisite for the two boys were performed by Garga, who was sent to Gokula by Vasudeva for that purpose: he celebrated them without the knowledge of the cowherds 1; and the wise sage, eminent amongst the wise, named the elder of them Ráma, and the other Krishńa

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp123.htm

So both Krishna and KrishnA actually were named with that name, the male child by Garga and the female child (teenager) by Vyasa.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I did find something.

The initiatory rites requisite for the two boys were performed by Garga, who was sent to Gokula by Vasudeva for that purpose: he celebrated them without the knowledge of the cowherds 1; and the wise sage, eminent amongst the wise, named the elder of them Ráma, and the other Krishńa

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp123.htm

So both Krishna and KrishnA actually were named with that name, the male child by Garga and the female child (teenager) by Vyasa.

Finally so Krishna was the real name of Vasudev

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Found something while reading Harivamsa

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Now, hear of the other descendants of AjamIDha. He begot sushAnti on his wife nIlini. From sushAnti was born puru-jAti from whom vAhyAshva is born. The latter had five sons resembling the immortals. They were mudgala, sR^i~njaya, bR^ihad-iShuH, yavInara and the fifth one is the powerful kR^imila-ashva...

Other reading: sushAnti is termed as puru-hèti who begot bahu-ashva; with va ba yoH abhedaH, the above vAhyAshva will become bahvashva, whose sons are the above five.

...

These five have become the protective lords of the pa~ nchAla province consisting of prosperous villages and their province came to be called as pa~nchAla because their father asserted – p~ncha alam; five enough; meaning pa~nchAnAm deshAnAm rakshaNe alam; five of my sons are enough to protect the province...

...

mudgala's progeny is called the highly illustrious maudgalyA-s, who are all noble, twice-born and abided by the duties of kshatriya-s... and these are called as kANwa-maudgalyA-s as they took the side of a~Ngirasa...

...

mudgala's eldest son is the highly illustrious brahma-saint, who through lady indra-sena, the daughter of nala, begot vadhyashva, vadhya ashva... vadhyashva begot twins on the celestial courtesan menaka... we have heard so... one of them is the royal saint divodasa and the other is the illustrious lady ahalya...

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_32.html

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So Maudgalya was Kanwa Maudgalya on the side of Angirasa. ie, likely Panchali's bio family since MBh keeps saying Angirasa is Agni.

Fun thing is Maudgalya was married to lady Indrasena, daughter of Nala - ?Nalayani from southern version who was Panchali?

Also, to note: Panchali's maid was called Indrasena at least twice that I know of (once during Jayadrath incident and once before incognito stay)

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I haven't drawn any conclusions. Putting it out there for debate.

Peeps, don't miss this. I need to know what you guys make of this.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Agree with most except bold.

Because Surya actually tells Kunti the child is not his responsibility before he leaves. My feeling is Kunti contacted said prince's family via Durvasa, and family arranged Athiratha to adopt the baby.

Having a wife and child wouldn't have stopped the prince from marrying Kunti - 2 possibilities.

I think it was Kunti who did not want to marry him and be second wife with no future.she doesnt ask surya for marriage. Only that she cant keep the child as she is not married. She didnt want to have sex with him either. She just used to talk to him as friend and that guy presumed she wanted sex and child and when refused forced himself on her.

1) He was betrothed to a princess from a bigger family and certainly wouldn't want the heir to come from a lower level princess of Kuntibhoj.

Kuntibhoj was mentioned as childless when got Kunti. The most logical explanation would be that get her to marry someone and have child that could become kuntibhoj's heir. Like it was done for santa in anga or chitrangada in manipur. I dont think any marriage with pandu was on cards till Kuntibhoj had his own son. Because if Shurasen made that plan then kuntibhoj will not get a heir. The heir will go to hastinapur. Also I think Shurasen was still king at this time, as he did not give Vasudev his own heir to kuntibhoj. If he had lost everything it would make sense to give vasudev so that he can become king of Kunti

And as he was king and he had absolutely no problem in getting his other daughters married to kings. All kunti's sisters were married to kings of Chedi (who was a puru descendent) Karusha Avanti and Kekaya. Plus Vasudev'a first wife was Bahlika princess Rohini.

There was no need to for him to give pritha to kuntibhoj so that she could marry Pandu. She must have been given as probably a 10 yr old kid. No one would have made any plans for her at the time

I think once Kunti bhoj had his son. He ignored Pritha completely. As if she didnt even exist. I think that was why she was angry with shurasen and vasudev. He doesnt even bother about her marriage, or look for grooms. He just waits for someone to come with proposal. Till I guess he gets pressured by Durvasa to organize her swayamvar. That she chose Pandu is most likely on durvasa's advice or training. HP was one of the largest kingdoms of the time. Pandu's impotency was not known yet.

2) Kunti was expected to marry Pandu, swayamvar or not. Perhaps that was one of the reasons behind her adoption. She would officially be kshatriya and could marry Pandu, this creating an alliance between Kurus and Yadavas. One of the things HV mentions are the 3 families where gods supposedly took birth - Kuru, Panchala, and Yadava.

Shukracharya had ensured that Yadavas will be called Kshtriya not suta. If Kunti had been already decided for Pandu, swayamvar was not needed and if needed at all would have been done as soon as she turned 16.

Krishna was called a cowherd because Vasudev could not become king. Because Vasudev became a vaishya and tended cattle after Ugrasen andhaka usurped his father's throne. And ofcourse Krishna Balram were raised as cowherds at Vrindavan. Shurasen was a king. No king had problems taking Shurasen's daughters as wives. Chedi were Puru. Karusha were suryavanshi I think. Have to check. Kekaya ofcourse were suta. And avanti Yadava.

It was like Karna being called son of charioteer only fit for using whip. Same way because Vasudev tended cattle people called Krishna cowherd

More about Shurasena Vasudev Kansa below

Shurasena was a proper king. Only problem was unlike other kingdoms the sons of kroshtu did not split and form their own kingdoms. But tried to take over the same kingdom for their family.

For eg. Sibi divided his large kingdom into separate entities for his 5 sons to form Kekaya Madra Sindhu Sauvira and eldest inherited the main region Sibi.

Here Vrishnis four sons (shurasen family, satyaki (sini) family, satyabhama family and akrura family) Andhaka's two sons (ugrasen/ kamsa family and Devaka/devaki family) and Bhajamana's sons (single mahabhoja family) were all fighting for the throne of Mathura.

Probably mathura was too small to be split into decent kingdoms. Though Bhojas themselves do develop mrittikavati as their personal territory.

So Shurasen's family ruled Mathura, he had a bhoja wife from whom he had 4 daughters, married to kings I mentioned. Then he marries Naga chief aryaka's daughter marisha and has vasudev and kunti. Here a fall out happens between Bhoja and Shurasen as now a naga son Vasudev was going to get the throne instead of a bhoja heir. Ugrasen who was waiting in the wings, with Bhojas support as well as Akrura, satyabhama's family and his own brother Devaka organizes a coup and takes over the throne. He becomes king.

Vasudev is chased out and with whatever money he has starts cattle business and becomes succesful. But he wants the throne back.

He first marries bahlika princess rohini and then with the help of satyaka kidnaps Devaki and her sisters and marries them.all.

Kansa is the crown prince at this time. Initially Kansa doesnt realise what is happening, and is ok. He himself is married to jarasandh's daughters.

But then Vasudev through Narada leaks the story that Kansa is a rape child and does not belong to Ugrasen. And starts political maneouvres with other families to get himself declared the rightful heir

Ugrasen disowns Kansa. Kansa is furious. And he Places Ugrasen and Vasudev + Devaki in house arrest.

THen 6 out of 7 daughters of Devaka miscarry. Which is again used by Vasudev as propaganda that Kansa killed them and when 7th survives it is sent to Vrindavan with rohini and her son balram as well. And a floats a rumor that Kansa is killing all children born at the same time as his son. That he is evil etx. Kansa then decides enough is enough and throws Vasudev into prison. And goes after his sons to kill them.

That is Why I believe if at all any plans of Pandu kunti marriage happened, they would have happened after Vasudev marries Pandu's sister (cousin) Rohini.

Not before. And most likely by then Kunti would have become 17 or 18. So he may have helped organize the swayamvar and asked Kunti to select Pandu, who was at the time unmarried heir apparent of Hastinapur, just about to be crowned King.

Do you mean to say that Kansa didn't kill the kids? Now this is a heart breaker

Aside if they were all from same family wouldn't Devak's daughter be paternal cousin (parallel) to Vasudev. Such marriages aren't permitted I thought