WHY RIYAAZ? - Page 5

Originally posted by: chukkna

Hi Surtaal Ji, Punjini ji,CB,

I cannot dare to differ with the thought that riyaz is the key to music. Similarly in any field.

But when we divert to other fileds, a painter may not need to paint 1000 paintings to become creative. He can paint what he has in mind and show his creative talent.

Similarly a person may not have written any story in his life time, but when he jots down his ideas and it is liked by people, the person goes on putting down his creativity and gets his creativity out.

I guess CB your point is regarding creativity was that creativity has nothing to do with practise. But I will still say for the complete creativity to come out of you, you will need to dip yourself in that field. You have to master the field. If you think Javed Akhtar saab is creative, he is into reading and writing field for ages and then only he could come up to this level.

Music needs more riyaz. Surtaal ji summed it up perfectly. Every succesful person in the classical music field has come up to here only because music was their life and soul. All the great people I have talked to used to do riyaz for 20 hrs out of 24 hours and they still do riyaz. Pt. Jasraj still has his riyaz session every morning. You cannot ignore the riyaz even if you become famous.

Creativity is ofcourse an inborn quality. May be a person knows the music well but never tried any experiments. I agree with CB here regarding creativity.Creativity is inborn. But to get the creativity out of you you have to master the filed.

You are right chukkna. It is only Indian music which specially needs so much riyaaz as compared to other fields. In fact, while googling through articles written by westerners, I found frequent reference to the "rigorous system of practice adopted in Indian music" and the gurukul system. So this is quite unique, I believe.

You do need lots of practice in other fields but Indian music is a different ball game altogether. I remember reading somewhere that George Harrison (Beatle) just gave up after some time. He started with all enthusiasm under Ravi Shankar's tutelage but couldn't keep up the riyaaz required.

Originally posted by: zapman

Your post is a good description of riyaaz as it relates to singers.

But riyaaz applies to instrumental music as much as it does to singing.

Simply put, it is practice. Training your voice / fingers / hands / arms etc. to do the right and expected thing without faltering is what you are practicing.

Boils down to the old saying - "Practice make one perfect".

I stand corrected. Riyaaz is not limited to vocals but to instrumental music too. 😳

Originally posted by: Dawn05

Thanks KBji, Punjiniji , sangeeta , Surtal , Chukku for making this discussion so interesting . 👏
I would like to say special thanks to CB for keeping this discussion alive since previous thread 😊 👏

I think we usually don't stir our mind and thoughts untill find some antagonism and we can't learn by listening only ourself 😊 so thank you so much CB . and ofcourse KBji for initiating all this 👏👏

Of course, Chatbuster gets complete credit for this thread! When he ends his arguments with "Maybe all this is too difficult for some people to understand," one feels like shaking him up for being so rude, then one gets inspired to start new threads! 😆

dear punjini: You asked earlier about Western music and riyaaz in the
context of the discussion on creativity.

Again, I have limited personal experience, but when I learned to play
piano (Western classical), the emphasis was on learning to render written
music properly. There was very little room for improvisation. Of course,
one was always exhorted to practice a lot. However, the focus was on
*rendering* a piece of music, not creating it. Of course, it is perhaps a lot
different at the advanced level (at the level of the Salzburg Quartet or
Yoyoma).

In college, there were a group of pals who played jazz (on various
instruments: piano, saxophone, drums etc..) When they got together, they
would have jam sessions that were pretty much entirely improvisation.
But then again, this was not really Western, but transplanted African
music. Of course, they practised too. But I don't think they viewed their
practice as a route to 'gyaan' or had any concept of 'guru' nor any ideas
like 'guru bandhan' etc.. Their practice was related to preparing for a
performance and that was pretty much it.

Don't know if this adds to the discussion at all, but thought I'd share my
meager experience.

You have certainly added to the discussion Sangeeta! So a beginner to western classical has to labour hard in first learning to play the written music. At higher levels, he learns to improvise.

In informal music forms like jazz, there is improvisation all the way. Guru-shishya parampara is non-existent, right? Theoretically, a shishya can learn even without a guru since written notations are available.

arre yaar log, dont thank me yet. abhie yaheen hoon (just when you thought it was safe?) 😉

actually, am happy to see that we have now gone to a more tolerant and expansive understanding of riyaaz, more in line with what i had in mind. we started with riyaaz being a repetitive rigorous workout of the raags/ vocal chords. thankfully we now seem to find merit in learning and experimentation as well. at least i hope that is the case? 😉

as for the guru-shishya mode of learning, it's a wonderful trip down memory lane. but the world has evolved since. we do have the Harvards and the MITs these days in case some of us do not know, schools where a student can undertake study under experts in different fields. we no longer have only Mrs Robinson to guide us thru all our formative years. Actually, might not be bad if she had certain qualities. but then what if she was all stuck up and knowledgeable only in certain matters? i cant see how learning from the wrong Robinson would be very productive. 😉

another thing- did anyone read Zakir Hussain's interview, the one where he talks about getting ideas from both western and eastern traditions? yaar, dont just read things for fun. there are occasionally some pearls of wisdom to be found. and speaking of him, is he all about riyaaz, and nothing about the opportunity he had because of his father, or the talent he started out with, thanks to all those chrommosommes he inherited? these other factors also come in, you know. so ok, what should we make of all the 10 or 20 originals that have been mentioned? well, does not seem we got a huge payoff when we consider that our culture has generated well over a billion people. would that indicate some problem with how we have approached things? 😊

now consider the west. they do have creativity and productivity-enhancing techniques, which obviate the need for a lot of trial and error experimentation and drill. they have the latest research on how to hold a bat, the speed and trajectory of a ball throw, the stats on a player (some of which we now have), the right camera angles, the hot-buttons in an audience to push, the proper way to excercize etc. These techniques allow them to do value-added creative things, where they get to work at their own pace and ship out one boeing in exchange for a million shoes we cobble together using our traditional approach. to the extent we can benefit from all the new techniques, why labor under the romanticized ideals of our past?

so where do i stand-

1. music education and practice is a great aid in developing motor skills and in enhancing creativity.

2. too much riyaaz, as in practice (not experimentation), can actually be harmful to the lungs. from what i gather, that practice entails excercizing the vocal chords/ muscles. well, any fitness trainer will tell you that you have to give different muscle groups a rest periodically. theek hai, we are just starting to think of fitness these days, but we have made a start now, have't we? seriously, for someone to be doing riyaaz 16 hours a day seems a bit ludicrous. if they are a genius, maybe it is in spite of the muscle-depleting schedule they have had, not because of it. 😛

also, in terms of excercize, when we are trying to tone up or lose all the flab we have put on thanks to our kabaabs and our alloos, we have to excercize a lot. after a point, it is possible to cut down on that excercize and maintain equilibrium. to continue with a grueling repetitive drill then does not seem to me to add any value. it is probably taking time away from the experimentation and the learning of related fields that would be required for true creativity.

therefore all drill and no experimentation makes for a dull boy. hope i can get all the riyaaz-types to repeat that a million times. 😉

[some of the wickedness in this post is intentional to keep the antagonistic juices going and the hate mail flowing. pls dont take it too hard]
😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by: punjini

You have certainly added to the discussion Sangeeta! So a beginner to western classical has to labour hard in first learning to play the written music. At higher levels, he learns to improvise.

In informal music forms like jazz, there is improvisation all the way. Guru-shishya parampara is non-existent, right? Theoretically, a shishya can learn even without a guru since written notations are available.

some Japanese friends i had would often say- a lazy person is a creative person. their rationale? they thought the lazy guy is always looking for ways to cut time, get more productive etc. That mentality led to creativity...

if George Harraison gave up, that's not because he was technically incapable of learning our music. i'd think it stemmed more from the fact that he and perhaps a lot of other folks out west dont have the same capacity for laborious tasks... Has nothing much to do with how creative they could be...

Originally posted by: Dawn05

I was expecting your WICKED post today
😆

i was doing my finance riyaaz today, all day, 16 grueling hours of it😆

Originally posted by: chatbuster

arre yaar log, dont thank me yet. abhie yaheen hoon (just when you thought it was safe?) 😉

actually, am happy to see that we have now gone to a more tolerant and expansive understanding of riyaaz, more in line with what i had in mind. we started with riyaaz being a repetitive rigorous workout of the raags/ vocal chords. thankfully we now seem to find merit in learning and experimentation as well. at least i hope that is the case? 😉

No need to be so patronising. 😡😆
As if you are last word in creativity, huh?
The general consensus is still that constant, rigorous riyaaz is needed in order to reach a point where creativity can begin.

Originally posted by: punjini

No need to be so patronising. 😡😆
As if you are last word in creativity, huh?
The general consensus is still that constant, rigorous riyaaz is needed in order to reach a point where creativity can begin.

no, am starting to see words like "learning" and "experimentation" creep in... Read Chukkna and other posts- didnt see anyone narrow down that scope. Not that i disagree with that. but it is moving away from the earlier definition...

if we are talking abt getting proficient enuff, i've mentioned previously the need to attain at least a certain level of proficiency. beyond that, it's muscle-depleting, infeasible and unwise in a world of finite life-time and opportunity costs.

i think the right definition is important because folks are lumping everything under the sun into riyaaz. and then it becomes a moot point.