WHY RIYAAZ? - Page 7

Originally posted by: sangeetaa

👏 👏 👏

Exactly - the issue underlying is is exactly that - what constitutes artistic
creativity?

My hunch is there is a cultural difference between India and Western
culture
on this question.

There is 1 quesiton I want to ask you on riyaaz - is riyaaz a form of
sadhana?

======
aside to cb: in my mind the question is not - which is superior? that
doesn;t interest me so much for the simple that i can't stop being indian
even if the western culture is better... what i am interested in is
understanding the difference, (assuming my hunch is right).

👏

dil to hai phir bhee hindustani (mera bhee)

n i dont believe any one culture gets the cake across the board. we all have our strengths. i feel we had it together thousands of years ago with the guru-shishya school of thought when we were the world's center of learning, but then somewhere we lost that edge. hopefully we're coming back now.

Originally posted by: chatbuster

1. music education and practice is a great aid in developing motor skills and in enhancing creativity.

2. too much riyaaz, as in practice (not experimentation), can actually be harmful to the lungs. from what i gather, that practice entails excercizing the vocal chords/ muscles. well, any fitness trainer will tell you that you have to give different muscle groups a rest periodically. theek hai, we are just starting to think of fitness these days, but we have made a start now, have't we? seriously, for someone to be doing riyaaz 16 hours a day seems a bit ludicrous. if they are a genius, maybe it is in spite of the muscle-depleting schedule they have had, not because of it. 😛

also, in terms of excercize, when we are trying to tone up or lose all the flab we have put on thanks to our kabaabs and our alloos, we have to excercize a lot. after a point, it is possible to cut down on that excercize and maintain equilibrium. to continue with a grueling repetitive drill then does not seem to me to add any value. it is probably taking time away from the experimentation and the learning of related fields that would be required for true creativity.

therefore all drill and no experimentation makes for a dull boy. hope i can get all the riyaaz-types to repeat that a million times. 😉

[some of the wickedness in this post is intentional to keep the antagonistic juices going and the hate mail flowing. pls dont take it too hard]
😆 😆 😆

I think the gurus of yore would have taken care that their students' riyaaz was not at the expense of their vocal/lung health. Maybe the students practising higher notes for too long would be asked to switch to lower notes and so on. Mind you, the gurus played the role of fitness trainers as well. They made students get water from wells and so on. (Coming to think of it, I would love to see you doing that Chatbuster!)

In any case, the problem with today's generation is not too much of riyaaz but too little of it.
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Kishore Bhakta has told us what his riyaaz involves:

From my personal experience, I definitely try not to sing the same thing over and over again. If I want to practice Raga Bhairava (morning raga), I would take a handful of songs with different lyrics, different dhuns, and hopefully different talas and practice. I would practice alankaras (combinations and permutations of the notes) and try to do it with as much as accuracy and develop some speed. As you know, compositions aren't gonna be in vilambit laya (slow speed) all the time, and you have to be able to hit the note properly in time with respect to tala.

Singing "jaago mohan pyaare" every day w/o any significant changes will eventually make the song sound stale when singing it. It is great to practice a song for some days, but you can't practice one song over and over again forever.

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I am also pretty sure that the riyaaz needed would reduce after a musician reached a certain level of proficiency. So an established musician would not be practising as much as he would be in his younger years. As you put it elsewhere, he would only be in "maintenance" mode and he would have a lot more time for creative output.

i think the creativity thread suggested by Surtaal is a great idea. maybe PunjiniG, KB, Chukkna, sangeeta, qwerty or Surtaal could start it...

it might help to list creativity techniques (riyaaz being one?), creativity in music etc., what is music education, and try to relate the ideas to indian classical and film music.

there is also the aspect of what we mean by creativity. and relatedly, how does one go about measuring it...

gtg now... tc folks

Originally posted by: punjini

I think the gurus of yore would have taken care that their students' riyaaz was not at the expense of their vocal/lung health. Maybe the students practising higher notes for too long would be asked to switch to lower notes and so on. Mind you, the gurus played the role of fitness trainers as well. They made students get water from wells and so on. (Coming to think of it, I would love to see you doing that Chatbuster!)

In any case, the problem with today's generation is not too much of riyaaz but too little of it.
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Kishore Bhakta has told us what his riyaaz involves:

From my personal experience, I definitely try not to sing the same thing over and over again. If I want to practice Raga Bhairava (morning raga), I would take a handful of songs with different lyrics, different dhuns, and hopefully different talas and practice. I would practice alankaras (combinations and permutations of the notes) and try to do it with as much as accuracy and develop some speed. As you know, compositions aren't gonna be in vilambit laya (slow speed) all the time, and you have to be able to hit the note properly in time with respect to tala.

Singing "jaago mohan pyaare" every day w/o any significant changes will eventually make the song sound stale when singing it. It is great to practice a song for some days, but you can't practice one song over and over again forever.

------------------------------------------------------------ --------

I am also pretty sure that the riyaaz needed would reduce after a musician reached a certain level of proficiency. So an established musician would not be practising as much as he would be in his younger years. As you put it elsewhere, he would only be in "maintenance" mode and he would have a lot more time for creative output.

👏

well said!

(except for the water part!😆😆😆)

Originally posted by: punjini

You have certainly added to the discussion Sangeeta!
So a beginner to western classical has to labour hard in first learning to
play the written music. At higher levels, he learns to improvise.

In informal music forms like jazz, there is improvisation all the way.
Guru-shishya parampara is non-existent, right? Theoretically, a shishya
can learn even without a guru since written notations are available.

I guess you could say that - my teacher taught me technique, mostly.
Once I learned the proper technique, she gave me pieces to practice,
which I could simply learn by reading from music sheets. That is a bit
different isn't it from Indian classical? Because even if you learn the
swaras that make up a song, you have not learned it, am i right?

There is clearly some similar activity in both - on one hand riyaaz on the
other practice - and there is also improvisation, but i think the difference
may be this:

it seems like in our music, the riyaaz is what leads one to be able to
improvise or create. Whereas I would say practice has nothing to do with
improvisation or creativity in Western music. It is almost like creativity is
the opposite of what you do when you practice!! Of course, you do use
the techniques you refine in practice when you improvise, but I think
riyaaz has far more importance in your ability to be creative as we think
of it in our music - am i understanding this correctly?

Sangeeta, you have understood it perfectly and have enlightened us further! 👏

😊 Thank you punjini-ji ... so CB, bete, I guess you have your answer now
(as to why you were wrong all along)😉 😆 ..

Found these 10 tips offered by Sonu Nigam for aspiring singers. His comments about copying, riyaaz etc are interesting (nothing new, though)



1. First and foremost, I would advise an aspiring singer to stop criticising others.

The more you criticise others, the more you find faults in others, the more you envelop yourself in a negative aura.

2. The attitude, "Arre yaar, yeh kya gaata hai, isse achcha toh main gata hoon (What does he sing? I sing better than him)," reeks of overconfidence.

That can be a singer's undoing.

3. Keep an open heart.

Believe in yourself and everything will happen by itself.

4. Riyaaz karna zaroori hai (It is important to practise), but unless you stop finding faults in others, you will not be sincere in your riyaaz.

Find the likeable qualities in your idol (whether it is Adnan Sami, Lucky Ali, Udit Narayan or Kumar Sanu). Look at their positive attributes. Inculcate them into your art.

5. If you want to be able to yodel like Kishore Kumar, you have to notice that quality in him.

Be observant, keep your ears open.

6. Participate in shows like Indian Idol if you get the opportunity.

When I started, I gave myself four years to make it in the industry.

But today, anonymous people like Amit Sana or Abhijeet Sawant can become stars in a month. You are offered an excellent platform that makes you famous and helps showcase your talent to millions.

Also, once recognised, you can earn lakhs of rupees. Most important, you get a host of opportunities.

7. An upcoming singer has to keep up with the times.

Sure, everybody can't dance or claim to look handsome -- it is not in your hands.

But having a positive attitude on stage works for you.

I don't think any of the singers in Indian Idol were ravishingly good-looking -- they were average to good-looking -- but they stood out because of their singing prowess and confidence.

8. The more genuine you look and sound, the easier it is to touch peoples' hearts.

If you claim to be humble when you are not, you will ring a false note.

9. I eat oily and cold stuff, I don't do much parhez (restrict myself from forbidden stuff).

If you want to, fine, but riyaaz is more important. It tones your voice.

10. It is not wrong to begin by copying your idol.

Lataji (Mangeshkar) was inspired by Noorjehan, Ashaji (Bhonsle) by Geeta Dutt, Mukeshji and Kishoreda by (K L)Saigal, Rafisaab by S M Durrani.

As for me, I copied everyone, from Rafisaab to Kishoreda to Manna Da to Lataji.

Those who begin by copying others and then find their own individual voice establish their versatility.

Those who begin as individual voices often find it difficult to vary their voices.

I think with Kal Ho Naa Ho, I have found my voice. In the past too, there have been songs where I sound cent per cent original, but I would rate Kal ho na ho as a prominent song.

That's a great post Punjini 👏 👏
Oh..well - too late for me

Jokes apart - Great going all Punjini/Rahul/Sangeeta/Surtaal 👏
Really enjoying this thread!

There is definitely one aspect that I guess we have not conclusively addressed that Chatbusterji is trying to drive home:
- Creativity is not a function of Riyaaz.
- Too much of Riyaaz (anything) is bad for health.

Here comes the Guru, who teaches you the right content based on your propensity to digest and reflect.

Guru also decides whether and when you are ready to go on your own. This is the time when you start to differentiate yourself. How??? By bringing in something new using your imagination, creativity and talent.

If you do not demonstrate to your Guru that you have sincerely learnt and are capable of furthering the tradition the Guru will not give you permission.
One can be a rogue Shishya and defy his/her Guru. In the short term he/she may succeed, but without the Guru's blessings no one can succeed, in my opinion.

To summarize:
- The Guru helps you channelize your energies & Riyaaz
so that you can fulfill yuor Manodharma
- The Guru determines when you are ready to stand your own and launches you by way of Ganda Bandhan or Arangetram.
- Therefore one does not inherit by way of legacy talent.

I am not sure if Einstien's kids(if he had any) made it big. Beethoven, Mozart, Bach, I dont know.

It now depends on how one views, understands and defines creativity.