Created

Last reply

Replies

123

Views

22k

Users

24

Frequent Posters

punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#31
Surtaalji, how can you doubt that people will not read your post? People would love to be your shishyas! You have made it clear that in order to be creative, you have to know and practice the basics rigorously until you are perfect. Have the swaras and taals in your control, master them, then do what you like with them, isn't it?

However, one question of Chatbuster has to be answered. How do you know whether the success of a person is due to his rigorous riyaaz or inborn talent? Is it just the icing on the cake, he asks. Wouldn't a highly talented person need less riyaaz? Suppose a reasonably talented person who puts in 100 hrs of riyaaz competes with a superby talented person who has only put 50 hours of riyaaz, who would win?

Manna Dey was in favour of not more than 2 hours of riyaaz a day. Ravi Shankar put in 16 hours of riyaaz in a day (God, when did he sleep, eat or relax?)
punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#32
An excerpt from an interview with D.V Datar, the nephew of Pandit D.V.Paluskar

How do you see the future of Indian Classical Music?

Good. It is dependant on the torchbearers. Earlier the urge to listen was more, as mobility was not as easy as of today. Bhaskar Rao Bakhale for example when he went to Punjab was flocked by almost the whole of Punjab, as they might never get the chance to hear him again. Today, we have cassettes, Lps, video, radio, TV and any artiste can be accessed through them.

I feel that there is a transition after every fifteen years. It may be for good or bad. It is like the changing fashions over time. The definition of what is good changes over time. Earlier one stayed with the guru and learnt not only music, but also related thoughts on music presentation, such as how to use the sur. Sur is very sensitive, which can be projected in a positive or negative way. Pt. Bhimsen Joshi says that he had to get up at four am everyday, get water and then sit for 'riyaaz', under the strict surveillance of his guru. He only practiced ragas Todi, Multani and Puriya for months altogether. Such a person has to be raga siddha. There was continuous attention, physical as well as mental. and a rigorous training, earlier.

Though times have changed now, the urge for music should not change. Riyaaz is very essential; there are no shortcuts to it. Only then only can you attain and achieve something.
soulsoup thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#33

Originally posted by: punjini

Here is Bismilla Khan's lament about riyaaz and guru shishya parampara.

"Where is the aadaab of older times? Aspirants now go to schools and colleges to learn music. They do not persevere under gurus. They want instant benefits. Stalwarts of yore — Abdul Karim Khan, Fiyaz Khan, Omkaarnath Thaakur — died poor. They had no time for personal gratification. Where are musicians now to do riyaaz like them? I may give time. But is there a disciple who can take it, snatch it from the guru? Besides, the shishya must find time for his own saadhanaa. I still remember. When I was a boy, my guru would come home tired at 4 in the morning and go to sleep. I would go to his bedroom and massage his legs. He would smile at me. He knew what I wanted. He would cast away sleep, give me his shehnai and say 'betaa, bajao'."




For 7 years Pt. Ravi Shankar worked under the outstanding teacher of Indian Classical music, Allauddin Khan. Allauddin was a strict disciplinarian, expecting his pupils to renounce material comforts so that nothing would distract them from their music. To him, the performance of music was a deeply spiritual act which required total devotion, and he imparted this attitude to his pupils.

Young Ravi Shankar used to carry buckets of water, do the laundry for the ustad, even 'padaseva' was a daily activity! 😆😆


soulsoup thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#34
Punjini - you are on roll today!
I am going send a PM to Rahul requesting him to instigate more debate with you. That seems to spark your creativity more!😉

Thanks Bhakta ji, Sangeeta, Surtaal ji and Rahul for such a nice and original thread! Although you guys just hijacked my 1 hour of a real busy day! But thank you! 😊
punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#35
Does anyone know if this project took off?



New project in town
Keith Fernandez

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

February 1, 1998
Music buffs have a new reason to rejoice. If all goes as scheduled, a new music school, part of the newly established Vrindaban Charitable Trust, is to be set up in Versova, Mumbai. To be operated on the lines of the gurukuls of yore, the school will teach all kinds of music. However, what will set Vrindaban and its students apart is the man behind the effort -- renowned flute maestro Pandit Hariprasad Chaurasia.




A follower of the Maihar gharana, the flautist has given a tremendous amount to Indian music. While his insistent use of the bamboo flute resulted in the instrument being accepted into the classical family, he is perhaps far better known for his sheer versatility as a musician. He worked extensively as part of Shiv-Hari, with Pt Shivkumar Sharma, he has worked on film music, with Kishori Amonkar and Balmurali Krishna, popularised the jugalbandi, and with John McLaughlin, Jan Garbarek and artistes of other nationalities, he has made World Music a household term.

The Vrindaban project, then, he tells you on a rainy winter afternoon at a downtown Mumbai hotel, has long been a cherished dream. "What I want to do is rebuild the traditional gurukul, which has not really been in existence for the last 150 years. If we lose that system, we're losing everything," he bursts out. The school will cater to all forms of music and Chaurasia himself will be the main guru, with other resident and visiting teachers.

In ancient India, the gurukul was the only way to learn. Students would leave their homes and families and come to live with the guru, working to take care of his every need. In return, the guru would adopt the student, take care of his basic needs and teach him everything he knew about the subject. The disciple, having lived and breathed his art, would thus be an embodiment of the guru's work, more so after his death, a way of keeping the guru's work and name alive. In many cases, the guru-shishya bond was so strong that the disciples even replaced the guru's own children in his affections.

Today, most musical education is through schools, colleges and private teachers all over the country, which function as and cater to a part-time interest. Here you enroll yourself, pay the requisite fees, and go to lessons twice or thrice a week as you would with a Bonsai or ceramic class. These, however, do not usually produce even mediocre performers, unless, of course, the student himself is exceptionally talented.

Like Protima Gauri, who established modern India's first dance gurukul at Nrityagram outside Bangalore, Chaurasia's gurukul will accept only those willing to prostrate themselves at the feet of their art. "Anybody with the basic knowledge of swara and laya can learn, but they must be willing to surrender themselves for music," he elaborates. Interestingly, there will be no fees. "We're not looking to make money," he continues. "We won't have 500 or 1000 students -- even five dedicated minds are enough."

And as with the ancient schools, the students' every need will be taken care of. Indeed, says Chaurasia, if there are promising students whose families cannot afford to let them go -- for monetary support and other considerations -- Vrindaban will adopt these, too. "The idea is to make the students feel at home, completely at ease with themselves and their environs, and absolutely unencumbered in their pursuit of music," he says, indicating that it will be a full-time lifestyle.

"It's not about one or two or even eight hours of time off. Students at Vrindaban will be totally involved in their music, sometimes practising until midnight, attending other concerts at times, doing their riyaaz, playing for other students and their families every month, reading about music, working with studios and sound systems, and so on. Students who pass out will not be given certificates -- they will be their own certificate."

Let alone quality, with complete styles and forms of music dying out, he adds, gurukuls are the need of the 21st century. Those Vrindaban graduates who don't make it to performer level have a range of options available to them as teachers, musicologists, composers and score-writers.

Chaurasia's own motivation, he admits unflinchingly, are similar to those of the ancients. "When an artiste grows old and knows he hasn't got much time left, he looks for someone to carry on his work and name. Likewise, I too want somebody to continue my parampara and keep my art going. I have left a body of work behind on CDs and cassettes but what about the sheer joy of live music? Who will fill that need after I am gone?" Ergo, he will be cutting down on and taking time off from his busy schedule to tend his flock. "When you start planting a small garden, you need to take care of it, whether you're busy or not, you need to tend your plants lest they wither and die -- the very thing you're trying to prevent by planting a garden in the first place," he smiles, begging off to go to a sound check.

Does that mean even musicians turn to gardening in their retirement?

Sunitha.V thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#36

Originally posted by: chukkna

Hi Surtaal Ji, Punjini ji,CB,

I cannot dare to differ with the thought that riyaz is the key to music. Similarly in any field.

But when we divert to other fileds, a painter may not need to paint 1000 paintings to become creative. He can paint what he has in mind and show his creative talent.

Similarly a person may not have written any story in his life time, but when he jots down his ideas and it is liked by people, the person goes on putting down his creativity and gets his creativity out.

I guess CB your point is regarding creativity was that creativity has nothing to do with practise. But I will still say for the complete creativity to come out of you, you will need to dip yourself in that field. You have to master the field. If you think Javed Akhtar saab is creative, he is into reading and writing field for ages and then only he could come up to this level.

Music needs more riyaz. Surtaal ji summed it up perfectly. Every succesful person in the classical music field has come up to here only because music was their life and soul. All the great people I have talked to used to do riyaz for 20 hrs out of 24 hours and they still do riyaz. Pt. Jasraj still has his riyaz session every morning. You cannot ignore the riyaz even if you become famous.

Creativity is ofcourse an inborn quality. May be a person knows the music well but never tried any experiments. I agree with CB here regarding creativity.Creativity is inborn. But to get the creativity out of you you have to master the filed.

First, thanks to everyone for this excellent thread. 👏👏

I agree with you Chukkna ji, that 'for creativity to come out of a singer, riyaaz is a must.'

From the little knowledge I have in Carnatic music, may I humbly add something more. I know that Manodharma (improvisation) is an important aspect in Carnatic. These creative improvisations can take place either before or after the main composition itself, in the form of Raaga Alapana, Kalpanaswaras etc..Singers use their creativity in rendering this, but it can be done only if they have good hold on the ragas, and there is no shortcut to that, other than continuous Riyaaz.

Surtaal thumbnail
Explorer Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#37

Originally posted by: sangeetaa

Wow Surtaal-ji, please tell us the details. It helps those of us who are listen-only understand your experience.

There is one question I have for you. How do you feel shastriya sangeet can help one attain 'gyaan'. Or to put it another way, how does a shishya know he has attained 'gyaan'? Can you speak a little about this?



Sangeetaa ji,

A shishya's dharma is to follow the guru to attain the gyan. This is for the Guru to decide whether they have been able to grasp whatever the Guru has taught them. In hindustani as well as carnatic tradition there are ceremonies to commemorate a disciple's achievement and whether he is ready to step out into the real world. These are called "Ganda Bandhan" and "Arangetram".

These are for the Guru's to determine whether a disciple is ready for Ganda Bandhan. A shishya's dharma is not to judge but to learn and assimilate whatever the Guru teaches without question.

So we have occasions like Guru Poornima wherever we honor the Guru and the guru commands some Shishyas to demonstrate what they have learnt.
Edited by Surtaal - 19 years ago
Surtaal thumbnail
Explorer Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#38

Originally posted by: svm73

First, thanks to everyone for this excellent thread. 👏👏

I agree with you Chukkna ji, that 'for creativity to come out of a singer, riyaaz is a must.'

From the little knowledge I have in Carnatic music, may I humbly add something more. I know that Manodharma (improvisation) is an important aspect in Carnatic. These creative improvisations can take place either before or after the main composition itself, in the form of Raaga Alapana, Kalpanaswaras etc..Singers use their creativity in rendering this, but it can be done only if they have good hold on the ragas, and there is no shortcut to that, other than continuous Riyaaz.



I was looking for the right word "mandharma" and I agree with svm73.
This happens whenever there is a jugalbandi and each artist then articulates the rendering. One gets to see the role of Riyaaz in coming up with impromptu compositions.

Some questions that come to mind pertaining to riyaaz and crativity are:
1) How important is it to learn swimming to keep afloat? or to do Synchronized swimming?
2) How far can we go without knowing to swim yet know how to stay afloat.
3) Can we control our direction if we do not know how to swim in the absence of any strong currents or winds.
4) Do we always have to depend on a wind or a current to carry us?

I have not been able to bring in creativity contributing to swimming in any way to keep afloat or to move in any direction. If you knew swimming you can try the freestyle, back stroke, breast stroke or the butter fly stroke or simply keep paddling at one place. All the other forms are creative swimming techniques, each with its own advantages.

sangeetaa thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#39
Hi Chukki: I write (or try to). And I don't know whether this counts as riyas, but in writing it is not simply a matter of expressing what is in you. After that, you have to keep revising and revising and revising again what you note. In that process, you often totally change the naksha of your work. And the other thing that is very helpful when you cannot get going is to do writing exercises. I have a book that lists some very interesting exercises and when I get stuck I work on them. Often times - sometimes months down the road, the product of that exercise will become the kernel of a new story.

In writing, even if you have that creative spark inside you, you need help to get it out. Does riyaz serve the same purpose in music?
zapman thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Explorer Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#40

Originally posted by: punjini

Riyaaz is an exercise in singing.

Your post is a good description of riyaaz as it relates to singers.

But riyaaz applies to instrumental music as much as it does to singing.

Simply put, it is practice. Training your voice / fingers / hands / arms etc. to do the right and expected thing without faltering is what you are practicing.

Boils down to the old saying - "Practice make one perfect".

Related Topics

Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".