Karna and Duryodhan's Friendship - Page 8

I have repeatedly read in this forum that Karna lost in Swayambar and wasn't able to put the string around the bow or something like that. Can someone provide a link to this ?

The one that I read or came across, mentions that Draupadi's remarks on Sutaputra did happen and that he was not allowed to shoot.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01190.htm

And that assemblage of monarchs, their hope of obtaining Krishna gone, looked sad and woeful. And beholding the plight of those monarchs, Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string. And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe--like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu--regarded the mark as already shot and brought down upon the ground. But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle.

Originally posted by: prerna4rishav

I have repeatedly read in this forum that Karna lost in Swayambar and wasn't able to put the string around the bow or something like that. Can someone provide a link to this ?

The one that I read or came across, mentions that Draupadi's remarks on Sutaputra did happen and that he was not allowed to shoot.

Yeah BORI CE states otherwise. Also, KMG itself contradicts as @Poorabhforever a member here had pointed. Below links:

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

• Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string. And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe--like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu--regarded the mark as already shot and brought down upon the ground. But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle.

• 
  

• Then Arjuna approached the bow and stood there like a mountain. And walking round that bow, and bending his head unto that giver of boons--the lord Isana--and remembering Krishna also, he took it up. And that bow which Rukma, Sunitha, Vakra, Radha's son, Duryodhana, Salya, and many other kings accomplished in the science and practice of arms, could not even with great exertion, string, Arjuna, the son of Indra, that foremost of all persons endued with energy and like unto the younger brother of Indra (Vishnu) in might, strung in the twinkling of an eye. And taking up the five arrows he shot the mark and caused it to fall down on the ground

The above two stanzas are contradictory while first talks about drapaudi rejecting karna. The second talks about him not being able to even string the bow.

Plus CE totally discard the sutputra comment as a later interpolation. So i am taking that Karna failed in the Swamyvaar.

Link from other versions: This is BORI CE, considered most authentic.

Originally posted by: prerna4rishav

I have repeatedly read in this forum that Karna lost in Swayambar and wasn't able to put the string around the bow or something like that. Can someone provide a link to this ?

The one that I read or came across, mentions that Draupadi's remarks on Sutaputra did happen and that he was not allowed to shoot.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01190.htm

And that assemblage of monarchs, their hope of obtaining Krishna gone, looked sad and woeful. And beholding the plight of those monarchs, Karna that foremost of all wielders of the bow went to where the bow was, and quickly raising it strung it and placed the arrows on the string. And beholding the son of Surya--Karna of the Suta tribe--like unto fire, or Soma, or Surya himself, resolved to shoot the mark, those foremost of bowmen--the sons of Pandu--regarded the mark as already shot and brought down upon the ground. But seeing Karna, Draupadi loudly said, 'I will not select a Suta for my lord.' Then Karna, laughing in vexation and casting glance at the Sun, threw aside the bow already drawn to a circle.

BORI reviewed over 1600 manuscripts before putting together the critical edition. Out of these, 4 had the suthaputhra rejection. Ie, it appears in less than 0.25% manuscripts.

That is just in the northern recension.

Southern recension plainly states Karna failed. Not to mention the non Indian versions of MBh.

Moreover, KUNTI was a sutha. Ergo, Pandavas were suthas. So was Krishna. So was Subhadra. What sense would it make for Panchali to reject one sutha on the basis of his caste while accepting 3 others? It would only mean she really, really didn't want Karna.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

BORI reviewed over 1600 manuscripts before putting together the critical edition. Out of these, 4 had the suthaputhra rejection. Ie, it appears in less than 0.25% manuscripts.

That is just in the northern recension.

Southern recension plainly states Karna failed. Not to mention the non Indian versions of MBh.

Moreover, KUNTI was a sutha. Ergo, Pandavas were suthas. So was Krishna. So was Subhadra. What sense would it make for Panchali to reject one sutha on the basis of his caste while accepting 3 others? It would only mean she really, really didn't want Karna.

Not contradicting your statement about the result, but just stating about the assumptions you made

1) Draupadi and Panchal people at the time of Swayamwar didn't know Pandavas were not Brahmins, hence they allowed Brahmins to participate and not Pandavas

2) Irrespective of Kunti being Suta, Pandavas were Kshatriyas since they took the clan from their Kshetraj father

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Not contradicting your statement about the result, but just stating about the assumptions you made

1) Draupadi and Panchal people at the time of Swayamwar didn't know Pandavas were not Brahmins, hence they allowed Brahmins to participate and not Pandavas

2) Irrespective of Kunti being Suta, Pandavas were Kshatriyas since they took the clan from their Kshetraj father

It wasn't opened up as much as the rest failed.

At last when in that assemblage consisting of highly respectable people, all the monarchs had become subjects of derisive talk that foremost of heroes--Jishnu, the son of Kunti--desired to string the bow and placed the arrows on the bow-string.'"

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01190.htm

Once Arjuna shot the mark, Drupada was agreeable. The kings got angry because they thought it was insulting for Drupada to hand her to a brahmana.

The thing to remember: if Krishna knew who the Pandavas were, but if Drupada didn't, then all he (and Panchali) could have understood was that the winner was not a royal. Arjuna was standing with the poor guests who'd arrived there for the spectacle and the dakshina.

Also, after the swayamvara, Drupada makes a statement about not knowing if it could be a shudra (not sutha) who won Panchali.

So if Panchali preferred an impoverished groom whose caste she didn't even know rather than wed Karna who was by then the king of Malini as well as Anga, she really didn't want the man.

Re: 2nd point. Caste rules are set out in Manu Smriti and come from both father and mother.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm

But Kunti was adopted by a kshatriya which made her a kshatriya. So yeah, Pandavas were not suta from that perspective.

Still, Panchali seems to have been fine with a groom who'd be living on dakshina and whose caste was unknown at the time.

Wasn't the entire Swamyvaar set up just to seek the pandavas out ?? That s how the archery competition was set up so that only the foremost of archers arjuna can accomplish the task. And that s why archers inferior to him i.e, all the kings including karna could not accomplish the task i am sure drapaud krishna and panchali were aware of this fact already .

And in one if the other versions Indonesian most probably it was bheem who won panchali s hand for yudhishtra instead of arjun do there the bait was placed for bheem like in India version it is placed for arjuna.