my short skirt says he is not rapist - Page 12

Originally posted by: BheegiBasanti

"Agar koi bhi bacche ko kisi ladki ka shareer kapdon ke andar se dikhega to usme uttejna paida hogi...Ladkiya jo hai unko yahan tak yahan tak (he gestures to mean that women should cover their entire body, then carries on speaking)... Skirt pehenti hai. Blouse dalti hai; poora nahi dalti hai. Dupatta nahi dalti. Apne aapko dikhawa karti hai. Baccha uske taraf akarshit hota hai (If a girl is wearing transparent clothes it will encourage lewd thoughts in any kid. Girls wear short skirts. They wear a blouse that leaves nothing to the imagination. They don't wear dupattas. They flaunt their bodies. The kid naturally gets attracted to her)," says Satbir Singh, Additional SHO of Sector 31 Police Station, Faridabad.

This is exactly the mentality that is at the root of why rape victims rarely receive justice in India. I quoted this from Tehelka's sting that is the focus of their cover story right now...I hope more people read this and are disturbed...and disgusted...and angry!

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main52.asp?filename=Ne140412Coverstory.asp

http://www.tehelka.com/

^ But rape, like pedophilia as an example, should be an ill where aiming for the "ideal" is imperative. To prevent something, getting to the root cause is key...and the cause here is not the victim...it is about the perpetrator.

I agree. However the context of this topic is "my short skirt" and hence all my posts

^ I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with your point. Yes people should exercise caution to stay safe, but you got to admit that the definition of modesty varies from culture to culture, and depends on what is socially acceptable and not.

So "short skirt" may not necessarily be increasing the risk of rape if you are in a place where wearing short skirts is the norm. Men can walk shirtless in streets freely and they don't face the same street harassment that women do.
On the other hand, showing even your fingers can arouse men in places where women are usually covered in tent all day long. I think DKC brought up this point previously - where do you draw the line? How much caution should one exercise and where should it end? A tent to cover everything, a headscarf, long skirts, where exactly? For you a short skirt maybe a "promiscuous" dress (speaking generally), but that may not be the norm of another culture. And for a lot of people, even showing the tip of your fingers can be considered as "dressing promiscuously" - but you may not find anything wrong with that. Again it all varies from place to place.

Hindu4Life has also brought this excellent point about the fact that our society's major focus is on the victim and her "dress" rather than the actual culprit.

Men are also raped btw - the percentage might be lower than that of girls, but in figures, it's not really a small value - now would you blame their half-pants or tight t-shirts for that incidence? Should they also exercise caution, and to what extent? Just asking.

As for this thread looking like a "lady's day out" - I guess these groupings had happened in DM countless times before - especially with religious topics where even non-DM-users can be seen bringing in their en masses and "liking" each others post like there's no tomorrow, throwing a tornado without defending their stance with rational arguments etc etc. I also know of one member who used to "like" his friend's post religiously without a second thought. I am probably deviating from the actual discussion, but this is relevant to your last point. At least in this debate, members have been quite rational and listened to the opposing viewpoint regardless of their original stance. And anyway, the "likes" are useless anyway. Who cares about them and hall of fame or whatever? 😆

Originally posted by: Beyond_the_Veil

^ I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with your point. Yes people should exercise caution to stay safe, but you got to admit that the definition of modesty varies from culture to culture, and depends on what is socially acceptable and not.

agreed

So "short skirt" may not necessarily be increasing the risk of rape if you are in a place where wearing short skirts is the norm. Men can walk shirtless in streets freely and they don't face the same street harassment that women do.

- I was checking the statistics on rape the other day and per capita most rapes occur in western countries. Yes it could be due to better reporting but still its not like nothing is happening in places where this dress is suppose to be the norm.

- Because men are the ones doing harassment

On the other hand, showing even your fingers can arouse men in places where women are usually covered in tent all day long. I think DKC brought up this point previously - where do you draw the line? How much caution should one exercise and where should it end? A tent to cover everything, a headscarf, long skirts, where exactly? For you a short skirt maybe a "promiscuous" dress (speaking generally), but that may not be the norm of another culture. And for a lot of people, even showing the tip of your fingers can be considered as "dressing promiscuously" - but you may not find anything wrong with that. Again it all varies from place to place.

I think minis, bikinis, drinking were just examples of an irresponsible behavior. In a country like Pakistan a girl not wearing a duppata, partying late can put herself at increase risk of rape. While in US the same level of risk could be achieved by wearing minis, getting drunk etc. The point however was that an irresponsible behavior can increase your risk.

It is not always just not about clothes. If a girl lets say flirts with a boy in real life and gives him wrong signals then don't you think that her chance of getting raped will increase? Of course the person on the other side needs to be rapist material lol. In the end we are talking about factors that could trigger such an action.

I can understand a girl reading all this. This is inherently unfair. Why should one side need to show responsibility and dress and behave in a manner while other side is not exercising it. That is a fair point. Unfortunately reality is not always fair. Till some sort of utopia is achieved we have to think in this manner. It is unlikely that any of these behaviors would lead to any rape. However the crime is so serious that awareness needs to be there. That was my point and I think even the website that was quoted here mentioned that.

Hindu4Life has also brought this excellent point about the fact that our society's major focus is on the victim and her "dress" rather than the actual culprit.

I did say she was right.

Men are also raped btw - the percentage might be lower than that of girls, but in figures, it's not really a small value - now would you blame their half-pants or tight t-shirts for that incidence? Should they also exercise caution, and to what extent? Just asking.

I am not clear on this part. We need to look at the factors that increase their chance of getting raped and then address those

As for this thread looking like a "lady's day out" - I guess these groupings had happened in DM countless times before - especially with religious topics where even non-DM-users can be seen bringing in their en masses and "liking" each others post like there's no tomorrow, throwing a tornado without defending their stance with rational arguments etc etc. I also know of one member who used to "like" his friend's post religiously without a second thought. I am probably deviating from the actual discussion, but this is relevant to your last point. At least in this debate, members have been quite rational and listened to the opposing viewpoint regardless of their original stance. And anyway, the "likes" are useless anyway. Who cares about them and hall of fame or whatever? 😆

Originally posted by: King-Anu

Okay I went through all the pages and before I follow-up let me make few comments

Few Comments

1) I respect the passion with which girls/ladies have presented their viewpoint.

2) I expect them to be sensitive on this issue as I can never think from their point of view and imagine what they go through. I am cognizant of this.

3) Yes I used the word cognizant to show off.

4) There is absolutely no justification for rape as it is wrong, criminal, unacceptable and in the end 100 percent blame goes to rapist - men or women.

5) I made that clear in post 1. Maybe I was not able to make my point after that.

6) I am also a little disappointed that this this topic is looking more like "girls day out" than an objective, non-emotional and factual debate. I was still expecting a balance view however it seems when it comes to women's issue there is no room for debate.

7) The girls are liking each other's posts and it seems as this is a popularity contest. No I don't care for likes (though i don't mind it lol) but yes I did feel that maybe I said something wrong lol.

8) The only bright side to this is girls like TheUltimate. I want to thank her for at least entertaining the other point of view.

9) No I am not women hater, someone who thinks male are superior or a kaans mamaa. Women are free to rule this world and let me assure you wont get a reaction from me lol.

10) Please move to follow-up and conclusion

Follow-up

a) First, lets be clear on what are we debating. This debate is not a debate on rape in general but rape in a situation in which women are dressed in a particular way (i.e. short skirt) or behave in a certain manner. The question was does some blame lie on women in this situation.

i- There is absolutely no need to involve Syrian women, familial rape, rape used as a weapon etc as raised by Miss Blue-Ice

ii- If I am debating a India versus Pakistan match then we should not be talking about state of cricket

b) Second, there are different types of blames. One can be blamed for a criminal act like rape or for negligence which can increase the risk of that criminal act. When I put some blame on women (only in this situation and not in a war) then I did not mean a girl was responsible for rape. In an ideal situation yes even if a women runs naked then she should not be raped. It does not require a rocket scientist to figure that out. When I blame a girl it was blaming them for not being careful and therefore increasing the risk. I do get that risk is there always and regardless but yet the risk can increase or decrease depending upon how one behaves.

That point is applicable in other crimes, for all genders, in all situation and during all times. Just because we used it in context of rape and for women does not make this point any less. Yes it confused some however it is nothing different from a blame that I put on myself for standing in front of the train. Here I acknowledge Miss Taco's point and prehaps my example was not a good one as with train the outcome is inevitable. However I was focussing more on my role than the role of train lol. You can replace train with me jumping in lion's cage, me being careless and leaving my house door open, me jumping in front of the gun at the end of the movie or anything. TheUltimate gave some better examples in her posts.

c) Yes we should expect civility but we should not expect that civility will be there. The former is an abstract while later is reality. That was the key line which unfortunately Miss D.K. Chokri and others did not respond to and quietly ignored.

d) Miss RTH and issue of "Real Men": My issue with real men was with the mindset and not definition. I don't think we should be creating idealistic notions as to me this is a wrong way of thinking. It tells us that real men do not rape women and un-real me do. That is black and white. It is possible that a real men that we idolize are not actually that. In context of rape I would say that a rapist is not always a bad man. It could be that he belongs to "real men" club who has lived an exemplary life but one day gets drunk or loses it and ends up raping someone. That person then falls into un-real men club after the rape. However when rape happened he was in the real men group. This is important as innocent girls might get wrong message. So lets not give anyone too much importance.

An interesting example of such a scenario is movie Kudrat. (Not Govinda one but old Raj Kumar and Rajesh Khanna starrer).

5) Miss Hindu4L presented a message and with it raised a good point about society and how we treat this issue. However that is applicable for other crimes as well and in a non-ideal world I don't think there is anything wrong in that message. We will not be able to teach everyone what they should be taught and importance of the crime is such that we cannot take any risk either. So the answer is both should be there.

Conclusion

I am satisfied with the posts I made however it is possible that people did not get my point. In certain situations a woman can be blamed for careless behavior and that blame is for increasing the risk of rape and not rape. We should not be thinking in "effect - cause" but in "cause - effect" manner. If we discuss that rape is wrong and therefore this is not debatable then yes many of you are right. However objective analysis tells as that while there might not be any cause from the victim's side there can be a certain behavior that affects the cause, in a sepcific sub-type of the crime, and should be accounted for. That will happen if we analyze it properly.

Even in a non-ideal world a message that you can run naked and still should not be raped is theoretically fine and fair however practically wrong. We should in fact tell girls to be careful as sometimes it is beyond us. No need to be sensitive about it. It does not make girl's any less. It does not reduces their rights. It does not mean they are inferior. That is what everyone does in different situation. If I have a BMW and I drive carefully and follow all rules but I go into a narrow street and a rickshaw crashes into me then what? I am not responsible but yet I should not have taken it there. Similarly in a particular situation one is advice to exercise caution. Perhaps some mind it because they think certain women are being looked down at but I at least did not make my post keeping that in mind.

A woman regardless of anything should never suffer from any discrimination - rape is altogether a different matter

Thank You.

see you have to be roman in rome and closing your eyes to reality isn't any good.

I say raping is unpardonable and cannot be justified.

But, don't you think, knowing that wearing short/revealing outfits in public places or and getting drunk at clubs/discos can invite trouble, and still doing so is being too silly?

I am a guy and i know that even for me there are things which can land me in trouble and i avoid them.

You can blame a guy for raping, but not for getting his feelings aroused on seeing a good looking girl with a mini skirt.

Same way girls wouldn't mind hrithik roshan w/o a shirt in a movie.

Its about keeping yourself safe and preventing un-necessary harm.

I am sorry to say this, but this a harsh world and taking precautions is the only solution.