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punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#91
Quoting from the article referred by Surtaal. This describes the experience of riyaaz and points out that it is actually a yogic or meditative technique. Amazing!


The initial exercises in vocal training, described to me in 1992 by Pandit Vidhyadar Vyas, seem to lie on the cusp of sabda yoga techniques. A brief description of the exercise follows:
Breathing deeply, one sustains madhya sa [middle-range doh] for as long as possible in the course of a single exhalation, paying careful attention to the maintenance of steady pitch, an appropriate timbre, and relaxed vocal cords. Using the scale of the diatonic Bilaval that, one
descends stepwise through the mandra saptak [lower octave range] using one breath per svar[note]; upon singing the lowest comfortable note, one returns stepwise to madhya sa; then repeat.

The exercise should begin using omkar [or akar, the open vowel sound "ah"], which after several repetitions may be replaced with sargam [solfge]. The exercise proceeds very slowly, taking up to five or six minutes to descend from and return to sa. After repeating this cycle several times, one may proceed by repeating the exercise singing two svar per breath, increasing to three, four and five svar (and, of course, shortening the duration of each svar accordingly) until one completes the entire ascent and descent with one breath; one would then attempt to sing as many cycles as possible with a single breath, alternating omkar and sargam.

Attached to this exercise were largely practical prescriptions that lent the exercise a sense ofritual, a common feature of riaz (Neuman 1980: 38). It is to be practiced immediately after waking up; after completing one's toilet, one should drink a glass of water, and sit comfortably centred on the floor. It should be done for no longer than forty-five minutes, after which one should rest the voice for a half hour, silently doing errands or having breakfast.

One should then return to the exercise, working upward from madhya sa to the top of one's range, again to a maximum of forty-five minutes. Once one advances with this practice, cycle repetitions can be reduced so that one may exercise the entire range in the first session, repeating the same in the second. The ritualistic prescriptions or regularities that often characterize riaz are meant to establish an environment that is conducive to concentration, and which generally demarcates the session from other activities in which
one engages. Nachmanovitch (1990: 76) notes that such ritual preparation contributes to the effectiveness of the session which naturally flows through three phases: invocation, work, thanks.

While differing in significant ways, such preliminary vocal exercises (especially in the "slow phase") engage the faculties that are used in mantra/sabda yoga exercise: slow controlled breathing, regular repetition of sound, relaxed posture/performance, vocal control, and
concentrated listening. The degree of focus and absorption that arises from this exercise is extremely intense, instilling in the singer a psychic equilibrium and interiorization that takes one well beyond a normal musical experience. Vyas agreed that, while being excellent for developing musical sensibilities and technique, it was indeed an efficacious meditative
technique.
Edited by punjini - 19 years ago
sangeetaa thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#92
Very interesting indeed - so riyaaz is actually a ritual or a meditative
technique.. that means it is not 'practising' or 'training' at all: not an exercise
undertaken towards an end, but a means of entering a certain state of mind.

This means, riyaz in the Indian musical traditions has nothing to do with
'ability' or (inherent) skill. (This is the discussion qwerty and chat were
having)...riyaz is not a means to an end, not a tool... but is a path one
traverses for its own sake.

The other implication of this... in our traditions creativity does not mean
mere novelty, it is rather the output of a certain state of mind.
chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#93

Originally posted by: sangeetaa

Very interesting indeed - so riyaaz is actually a ritual or a meditative
technique.. that means it is not 'practising' or 'training' at all: not an exercise
undertaken towards an end, but a means of entering a certain state of mind.

This means, riyaz in the Indian musical traditions has nothing to do with
'ability' or (inherent) skill. (This is the discussion qwerty and chat were
having)...riyaz is not a means to an end, not a tool... but is a path one
traverses for its own sake.

The other implication of this... in our traditions creativity does not mean
mere novelty, it is rather the output of a certain state of mind.

sorry, i was going with the interpretations offered by folks here on this thread. i have been very clear when i use the term drill-riyaaz.

btw, the author, seemingly knowledgeable as he is, is a "student" in some sense. even ancient scriptures are subject to interpretations, re-interpretations etc. So many different folks spend a lifetime studying religious texts, yet they find different and new interpreations even after all these years. with all due respect, surely we dont take any one's interpretation as the gospel?

[btw, "we" have supported "people" who've wanted to go down to india and then teach indian phil/ religion in colleges when they return. a big issue some of us have had is how "certain people" misappropriate things quintessentially "ancient india", repackage it, and palm it off as original thought. they cant sell it if they label it "indian". but they can sell the packaged one. it's a huge problem in univs where a researcher will get side-lined from promotion if he brought up the "india" connection directly. it actually amts to plagiarizing. it also discourages others from giving credit where it is due. just thot i'd point that out because there are a lot of subtleties that folks dont get when they read these articles, though this particular author seems to be on our side. incidentally did u notice that most of the people he quotes are from elsewhere?

the real shame is that we have only 5 or 7 guys all over india who really understand and can transcibe our vedic works. by comparison, there are maybe 50 "elsewhere". what will our gurus really teach the shishyas? slowly, we WILL lose what was ours and it will be packaged as something else. am actually pissed off because we love to sound so knowledgeable on things but often cannot even get as precise as someone who's grown up in another culture who can express our thoughts well. no wonder we were losing ground to some folks "elsewhere". if u read above, u will for once get an idea of what my true leanings are fwiw.

sorry for this digression.]

Edited by chatbuster - 19 years ago

punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#94
It's true that we have often needed "outsiders" to come and interpret our own texts in English. Most of us are not able to read and understand Sanskrit, Urdu, Arabic etc. There is certainly a danger of losing what is ours, which will soon be packaged as something else. The lack of precision in our expression and thinking is also a BIG problem.

The particular article in question has apparently been written by a PhD student of musicology who has made attempts to learn Indian classical music. He has also interviewed some people to know their interpretations of riyaaz and music. BTW no one is being asked to regard this article as gospel!

Sangeeta, he does not say that riyaaz is not 'practising' or 'training' at all and is entirely a ritual or meditative technique. Surely, that is only one aspect of riyaaz.
chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#95

Originally posted by: punjini

It's true that we have often needed "outsiders" to come and interpret our own texts in English. Most of us are not able to read and understand Sanskrit, Urdu, Arabic etc. There is certainly a danger of losing what is ours, which will soon be packaged as something else. The lack of precision in our expression and thinking is also a BIG problem.

The particular article in question has apparently been written by a PhD student of musicology who has made attempts to learn Indian classical music. He has also interviewed some people to know their interpretations of riyaaz and music. BTW no one is being asked to regard this article as gospel!

Sangeeta, he does not say that riyaaz is not 'practising' or 'training' at all and is entirely a ritual or meditative technique. Surely, that is only one aspect of riyaaz.

We usually take pride when we think others are showing interest, but some of the worst offenders have often been people who "took the time to learn" and later deride/ misappropriate/ compare... When some of this goes on in elite schools which set course for others, it can be disturbing.

anyway, dont want ur thread to turn into that discussion, so apologies.

sangeetaa thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#96
i guess you are right, pujini-ji... it's not quite so either-or this whole issue of
riyaz...

cb, i am not talking about the interpretation of a text here... what i am trying
to understand is the Indian musician's *experience* of riyaz - vis-a-vis the
Western musician's experience of practice.

So it doesn't take any fancy interpretation of texts; I can accomplish this by
simply *asking* musicians like Punjini-ji, k_b-ji and Surtaal-ji - or even the
Western author of that article who has investigated the same phenomenon.
chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#97

Originally posted by: sangeetaa

i guess you are right, pujini-ji... it's not quite so either-or this whole issue of
riyaz...

cb, i am not talking about the interpretation of a text here... what i am trying
to understand is the Indian musician's *experience* of riyaz - vis-a-vis the
Western musician's experience of practice.

So it doesn't take any fancy interpretation of texts; I can accomplish this by
simply *asking* musicians like Punjini-ji, k_b-ji and Surtaal-ji - or even the
Western author of that article who has investigated the same phenomenon.

yes it does take that kind of interpretation. the author after all is interpreting what others before have "researched", and we have been quoting him. or are you saying that you have chosen to disregard the "text" of the author? btw, we can all read the same thing and how we see it is colored- so in some sense we are always interpreting. incidentally, the fights in courts between lawyers, what are those about?they start out with "factual" contracts that they themselves have drafted out, yet find new "interpretations" of their own work to keep them going at each other.

of course, as u suggested, one can also gain by "asking" questions of the relevant people. but do notice that the answers had varied on this thread itself. meaning we all take it in our own individual way.

Edited by chatbuster - 19 years ago
*Jaya* thumbnail
20th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#98
Hey Abhi - Welcome back to the forum 👍🏼

This is a very interesting thread and I am enjoying reading every single post - though not qualified enough to comment much...

I am sure we will continue to hear great discussions around this 😊
apparaohoare thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#99
Welcome back Bro. We missed you a lot.

One more info for you here. Hemant kumar had a son and a daughter. His son's name is Babu who is married to actress Mousumi Chatterji, and daughter is Ranu Mukherjee. She is a singer too and a very close friend of Kavita Krishnamurti.




nicegirl_good thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Sparkler Thumbnail + 4
Posted: 19 years ago

Originally posted by: zestinkiest

Thanks Punjini for a highly informative post.

I'm completely non-musical and i truly appreciate the efforts of all to help educate others on the finer points of music appreciation. 😃

😊

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