WHY RIYAAZ? - Page 11

Brilliant Post Abhi. 👏

Got a question: In the part where you talk about "Sa". Is Sa different, or coming back to Sa is different.

Welcome back AD. It's nice to read your posts again.

I am a little puzzled to read the part where CB has quoted me as saying that riyaaz is a monotonous drill. I went back to read all my posts to check but I have not used that expression anywhere!

Whatever I have to say about riyaaz is summed up on the 1st page. I have talked about how riyaaz helps in keeping the vocals in tip-top condition so that there are less chances of slipping a note and how it enhances lung power. I have also talked about how riyaaz helps a singer or instrumentalist to reach a level of proficiency whereby he/she can be as creative as one wants. I have given a few viewpoints of
musicians like Bismilla Khan, Parveen Sultana etc about riyaaz and dwelt a little on the importance of guru shishya parampara.

The article posted by Surtaal on riyaaz sheds light on the yogic/meditative/ritualistic aspects of riyaaz.

Originally posted by: adwarakanath31

Thanks Appaji.

Appaji, it's about how you sing the note. Sa was just an example. In different ragas, the Sa is sung differently. Ofcourse, the coming back to note (landing) is different for each raga. Sometimes you just float over the note so that the rasa of the note isn't dominant, sometimes you supress and sing it, sometimes you sing it dominantly, sometimes you stress it, sometimes you hold it for a longer time.

Actually, this point was illustrated very nicely by Mrs. Dhanashree Pandit-Rai, a hindustani vocalist. She gives performances on TV...Star Utsav, early morning at 6, they have a programme called 'Ninaad'. Excellent programme. Music from all over India. She had illustrated this point by singing the Shadja of the Kalyan, the PuriyaDhanashree and the Malhar. Each time the Sa souned different...sometimes peaceful, sometimes melancholic, sometimes fidgety...that way.

Thanks Abhi. The last line explains it all.

BTW, nice signature. 😆

Wow abhi amzing.. I sometimes wonder how you know so much and at such a young age ?👏👏👏

Its great to have you back.Will enjoy reading your posts.

For some of us who love music but don't know the basics, threads like this help to get a glimpse of what Indian classical music is all about and why classical training is required to become a good singer.

Originally posted by: adwarakanath31

My dear CB, don't bring in the different interpretation part here. Riyaaz can't be interpreted in different types by differetn people. You're simply arguing for the sake of it. Sincere request - Let's stop haggling like defence laywers in a court and stop trying to catch each other on small technicalities, which more often than not, throws the discussion off at a tangent to the original discussion.

With your permission rahul, I am posting the conversation we had regarding riyaaz here.

5-10?😉.

Here's a little exercise for you. Read up on what a 'Gharana' in music is😉.

7-8 generations of musicians...simple example - the Dagar Family. You must've heard of Ust. Wasafudding Dagar. Then the Bangash Family. The Mishra family of Benaras Gharana, Khan parivar of the Rampur Gharana, the Khans of the Patiala, Kirana Gharnas. Pt. Jasraj and his forefathers from the Mewati Gharana etc. In music, this is the rule, rather than the exception.

If we talk about Rafi sahab, do you know, he never ever encouraged music in his house. He had forbidden even his wife from listening to music, to bachche kya seekhenge? Amit Kumar in an interview said that he simply desisted the rat race of the industry and he was too much a mast maula to become a playback singer, so he left.

Nitin Mukesh🤢.

Asha's daughter is a fabulous singer! I've heard her in concert with her mother and Suresh Wadkar. She's supremely talented. But her mom didn't want her to get into the rat race again. And after seeing her mother suffer in her early stages in the industry, she quit. She was badmouthed at her college too. So she resorted to a better talent she had...writing. Talat Mahmood's son is a respected Ghazal Singer. If you listen to his albums, you'll feel that yes, the legacy of his legendary father is being carried forward by him. But where's the market now for such songs in films? That's why he didn't succeed in films...in fact, he never tried to enter. But his Ghazal albums are famous in the niche audience. Check them out, his name is Khalid Mahmood.
Mannada didn't have any children, so his legacy is done with. I stand corrected. Thanks for the input; Mannada does have two daughters. Hemantda...i dunno about him. Lata doesn't have any children either. Roshan sahab's legacy was continued by his son Rajesh Roshan who gave some of the biggest hits of the 70s and early 80s and now with his brother Rakesh Roshan.

Talking of riyaaz, i'll clear up some points which have not been touched by others in that thread.


1) Riyaaz is simply conditioning of the voice and practising to hit the sur rightly. There's a specific way to do riyaaz. You have to get up at the first pahar of the day, sit facing the sun in padmasan, do pranayam first, and then start riyaaz with a tanpura. And riyaaz is NEVER done vigourously, as you might've got it wrong since i say a post regarding muscle fatigue etc. Riyaaz is a low pitched, sloooooooooooooooow expansion of notes, savouring each one like you might eat a <insert favourite sweet here>. The basic idea of riyaaz is to condition your throat to sing ever note, semitone, microtone which can be managed by the human throat, so that you the hit the frequencies right. After all, music is all about singing the right swars. Hitting the right swars evokes the right emotion, and that's the basic element of our music.

2) You do NOT sing compositions in riyaaz.

3) About creativity; riyaaz and creativity are two different things. Why do some vocalists and instrumentalists become A-Grade and others remain B-grade (as rated by SRA)? It's because of the attitude and amount of creativity and musical intelligence. Some people sing for the heck of it. Some people do it with passion. The main objective of classical music is to evoke emotions. Each of the seven swars denote an emotion. The combination of these intellgently, leads to a raga which emotes a certain rasa. While expanding a Raga during the presentation of the 'cheez', it is incumbant upon the singer to determine how he should improvise. Does he want subtle emotivity (is there such a word) or does he want powerful in-your-face emotions? I'll give you an example. ML Vasanthakumari is the most reknowned RTP singer (ragam-thanam-pallavi). Now, RTP is the most complex thing a carnatic musician can handle! It takes the jeebies out of me to even understand it! MLV handled it most beautifully. And, RTP is ENTIRELY based on your creativity and understanding. IT's fully creative and improvisatory in nature. For example., there's a famous swar-alankar by her where she keeps hitting the Nishadha (Ni) after every detour to the other swaras of the Todi ragam. Ni produces pathos, and there's always an inexplicable heavy gloom in the atmosphere after that.

Now that's intelligence and creativity. But where does riyaaz come in? It comes in here that you should have that tremendous command over your voice to sing the swar-alankar perfectly.

Let's take a look at Manada's Laga Chunari Mein Daag's last Tarana. It's the height of difficulty. Not many dare to attempt that Bhairavi Tarana, and if they do, they make sure they practise 101 times. The story goes that Roshan saab told Mannada that no one else but he could sing it. And Why? Because of all the Golden Era singer, Manada was the most trained classically, and because of his intense riyaaz, he had the best command over his voice. Such that even Rafi didn't have.

Talking about Rafi, here's another story regarding Riyaaaz. He used to get up at 3 AM to do his riyaaz. At two famous concerts in Bangalore and US, he sang O Duniya Ke Rakhwale. THe line "mahal udaas aur galiyan sooni", he sang it in EIGHT different ragas then and there! Until you do riyaaz to get your command of the ragas right, you simply can't do it. Moreover, Rafi was the only male singer to have had the full human range of 3.5 octaves. He himself says he managed to hold the melody at that high only because of Riyaaz and nothing else.

One last thing.

Ever wondered why every other house in the south has a girl or a boy who can sing and sing really well? Because they're pushed into music at an early age, and are made to rigourously practise. (but then, you need something special to become famous😊😉).

There's a saying in Kannada - Haadtha haadtha raga, naraltha naraltha roga. (you perfect a raga by singing and singing and singing, and you get a disease by moaning and moaning)😆

To the above discussion, Rahul replied, and I replied back. Here's the transcript.

but to clear a few things:

1. punjini is the one who stated that riyaaz is monontonous drill, not me. Sorry, got mistaken

2. in my mind, riyaaz is a combination of "rote learning" + physical excerize of the vocal chords etc. That's in your mind. Ask a musician and he'll say otherwise. Learning is different, riyaaz is different. Riyaaz is SIMPLY to condition your gala and to maintain the ability to hit the right surs. I do have a problem with EXCESS of that. All of us do. Classical musicians, the hardcore vocalists do a LOT of riyaaz. The other light singers don't. It depends on what kind of a singer you are. we all have finite hours in a day. someone had previously mentioned that someone was great because they spent 16 hours a day on that drill. well, that does not leave any time for non-rote learning and experimentation (note: rote learning is a very elementary form of learning). again, i do consider drill as essential, but i do have a problem when we get to extremes. The setup of Indian Music is actually quite different from a lot of other things that require learning.

Here's a simple example to illustrate my point.

Let's take the Raag Bhairav, which is the first raag taught to music students.

Aa - S r G m P d N S'. Av - S' N d P m G r S

When this raag is taught, the master first sings the raag, and the students repeat until they've got the raag-lakshan and the meends right. Indian Music has never been a written form, it's always been a vocal form. There's a reason for that. In every raag, the swars are sung differently!!! For example, the Sa of the Kalyan, is different from the Sa of the hippity-hoppity Bhopali is different from the melancholic Sa of the Puriya Dhanashree etc. This HAS to be practised to get the right effect. No amount of genius, self-analysis etc etc will get these nuances right. It has to be riyaaz.

Moving on, now that's the basic raga structure of Bhairav. Suppose you're my student. I teach you this Raag in its entirety. I teach you the basic structure of Raga presentation including the Alaap, Gat, Jor, Jhala, Khayal etc. At my place, when you're learning the real thing, you keep repeating after me until you get it right. That's rote-learning, and that's the basic kind of learning involved in music. It's like science. You need to get your basics right before you do some new research of your own. Can you engineer genes without knowing the basics of DNA synthesis and endonuclease action? Similarly, you need to perfect your raga basics first before you can talk of creativity. Learning the basics of science doesn't hamper your creativy, IF, and IF you have an aptitude for it. An exactly similar thing happens in music too.

Where does Riyaaz come in here? During you Riyaaz, you DO NOT practise the above structure of the said Raga. You simply sing all the notes, in a slow deliberate fashion, including heavy and rigourous breathing exercises. Note, that these exercises do not cause any harm to the body, in fact, they increase the Tidal Volume and Vital Capacity of your lungs, which is always an added asset when singing.

See, now is it clear? The difference between rote learning and riyaaz? Now when I tell you go and present a Khayal in Raag Bhairav, my dear friend, at that moment on stage, YOU improvise. It's not what you have practised. It's you creativity that comes into play. It's upto you to decide how to showcase the bhaav, and your vocal prowess in front of the audience. Riyaaz helps in making your throat automatically hit the right swars without you thinking for too long.

Now do you get the difference between rote learning and Riyaaz?

3. along the way, i did dispel the notion that indian music is better or worse because it is so "hard" for a westerner to learn; That's because of the entirely different setups. Indian Music is non-harmonic, western music is completely harmonic. That makes it tough for the westerner. Because he thinks Harmonically in every sense. But it's easier for an Indian to adapt to western music.

4. i brought out the notion that, like it or not, there is nothing ethicaly wrong with pich correction as long as it is not in the context of a competition. True. But there are two sides to every coin. Punjiniji has summed it up perfectly in the said thread.

5. i did state that there is a father-son legacy. i think it is surtaal who has been saying otherwise. Nope, you talked about the father-son legacy being restricted to only 5-10. It's all a question of bringing it out into the public or supressing it. Like Amit Kumar and Varsha Bhosle.

6. as for creativity, my feeling is that learning, exposure to different styles, some drill, an ability to make associations, an ability to self-analyze and also have a feel for what is appealing are some of the ingredients. drill-type riyaaz is the least important of all of these. Riyaaz is as important as everything else. When you learn Hindustani/Carnatic classical yourself, you'll know. By now, I hope the misconception about Riyaaz is clear. Refer to the analogy between science basics and practise. Also refer to the analogy between the stretching exercises an athlete does. They're the motions he goes thru to keep his body supple. His running practise entirely different.

7. in western schools, they spend very little time having people perfect their vocal frequencies etc. Not really. Read Celine Dion's interview, and read how she was trained. In the middle ages, they used to cut off the testicles of choir boys to retain their feminine vocal frequencies😆. Only thing is, as I've said again, in their music, they don't have Ragas, they don't have even 1/10th the kind of ornamentations we use, they don't sing one Note about 10 different ways etc. That's why they don't need much voice conditioning. They are allowed to be individuals and learn to create a piece the way they can. it allows someone to experiment with what works best for them. it opens them at an early age to experimentation while they are learning and doing some drill. All the western musicians I know, keep playing the pieces of the masters. I've hardly known many to compose themselves. Whereas, let me tell you this, EVERY...i mean EVERY Hindustani Musician composes when he gives a concert. He has to. The raga is taught. But the 'cheez' is his own composition and on the spot improvisation.

8. i respect the cultural traditions of the south. a lot. as a delhi punjabi, i have often lamented amongst family and friends about the lack of same in our region. True. After living in Delhi for 10 years, I've noticed the same. When I came down here this summer, I was heartened to see the Boys still do their morning puja, sport the vibhuti and vermillion on their foreheads, along with pubbing and mall-ing😆. And many of my relatives are still pushing their children to learn carnatic classical. My 6 year old cousin learns.

Originally posted by: adwarakanath31

Thanks punjiniji!

Ah, CB at mischief again? 😉. The article by Surtaalji was excellent! Thanks surtaalji!

Thanks Appaji 😆

No I am referring to your post in which you've quoted CB saying that I called riyaaz a monotonous drill. I didn't say that. Plus Kishore Bhakta illustrated how he practises ragas.

Actually CB and I are more or less in agreement over most of the issues now. He raised many valid points such as the role of riyaaz in creativity, role of guru and so on. He was wondering whether a 16 hr riyaaz is relevant in today's times and whether one needs to keep up the same punishing drill throughout one's lifetime. Different people answered this question. Just as you said, I too believe that riyaaz doesn't take away creativity in any way because it is mainly to keep the vocals in good condition. I said that one might cut down on the hours riyaaz as one advances to higher levels.

Uff ye phir aa gaya... 😕 😆

BTW, this "copy/paste" of yours was still being made fun of (in other places) by some (those who claim to be "promoting Indian culture amongst youth" but their own preference seems to be anything but that)... 😆

Details kal PM mein... 😉

Hi JuggyE, whom are you talking to and who are you referring to?

Why AD, your own icon Manna Dey says that not more than 2 hours of riyaaz are necessary. 😊

Originally posted by: adwarakanath31

My dear CB, don't bring in the different interpretation part here. Riyaaz can't be interpreted in different types by differetn people. You're simply arguing for the sake of it. Sincere request - Let's stop haggling like defence laywers in a court and stop trying to catch each other on small technicalities, which more often than not, throws the discussion off at a tangent to the original discussion.

With your permission rahul, I am posting the conversation we had regarding riyaaz here.

5-10?😉.

Here's a little exercise for you. Read up on what a 'Gharana' in music is😉.

7-8 generations of musicians...simple example - the Dagar Family. You must've heard of Ust. Wasafudding Dagar. Then the Bangash Family. The Mishra family of Benaras Gharana, Khan parivar of the Rampur Gharana, the Khans of the Patiala, Kirana Gharnas. Pt. Jasraj and his forefathers from the Mewati Gharana etc. In music, this is the rule, rather than the exception.

If we talk about Rafi sahab, do you know, he never ever encouraged music in his house. He had forbidden even his wife from listening to music, to bachche kya seekhenge? Amit Kumar in an interview said that he simply desisted the rat race of the industry and he was too much a mast maula to become a playback singer, so he left.

Nitin Mukesh🤢.

Asha's daughter is a fabulous singer! I've heard her in concert with her mother and Suresh Wadkar. She's supremely talented. But her mom didn't want her to get into the rat race again. And after seeing her mother suffer in her early stages in the industry, she quit. She was badmouthed at her college too. So she resorted to a better talent she had...writing. Talat Mahmood's son is a respected Ghazal Singer. If you listen to his albums, you'll feel that yes, the legacy of his legendary father is being carried forward by him. But where's the market now for such songs in films? That's why he didn't succeed in films...in fact, he never tried to enter. But his Ghazal albums are famous in the niche audience. Check them out, his name is Khalid Mahmood.
Mannada didn't have any children, so his legacy is done with. I stand corrected. Thanks for the input; Mannada does have two daughters. Hemantda...i dunno about him. Lata doesn't have any children either. Roshan sahab's legacy was continued by his son Rajesh Roshan who gave some of the biggest hits of the 70s and early 80s and now with his brother Rakesh Roshan.

Talking of riyaaz, i'll clear up some points which have not been touched by others in that thread.


1) Riyaaz is simply conditioning of the voice and practising to hit the sur rightly. There's a specific way to do riyaaz. You have to get up at the first pahar of the day, sit facing the sun in padmasan, do pranayam first, and then start riyaaz with a tanpura. And riyaaz is NEVER done vigourously, as you might've got it wrong since i say a post regarding muscle fatigue etc. Riyaaz is a low pitched, sloooooooooooooooow expansion of notes, savouring each one like you might eat a <insert favourite sweet here>. The basic idea of riyaaz is to condition your throat to sing ever note, semitone, microtone which can be managed by the human throat, so that you the hit the frequencies right. After all, music is all about singing the right swars. Hitting the right swars evokes the right emotion, and that's the basic element of our music.

2) You do NOT sing compositions in riyaaz.

3) About creativity; riyaaz and creativity are two different things. Why do some vocalists and instrumentalists become A-Grade and others remain B-grade (as rated by SRA)? It's because of the attitude and amount of creativity and musical intelligence. Some people sing for the heck of it. Some people do it with passion. The main objective of classical music is to evoke emotions. Each of the seven swars denote an emotion. The combination of these intellgently, leads to a raga which emotes a certain rasa. While expanding a Raga during the presentation of the 'cheez', it is incumbant upon the singer to determine how he should improvise. Does he want subtle emotivity (is there such a word) or does he want powerful in-your-face emotions? I'll give you an example. ML Vasanthakumari is the most reknowned RTP singer (ragam-thanam-pallavi). Now, RTP is the most complex thing a carnatic musician can handle! It takes the jeebies out of me to even understand it! MLV handled it most beautifully. And, RTP is ENTIRELY based on your creativity and understanding. IT's fully creative and improvisatory in nature. For example., there's a famous swar-alankar by her where she keeps hitting the Nishadha (Ni) after every detour to the other swaras of the Todi ragam. Ni produces pathos, and there's always an inexplicable heavy gloom in the atmosphere after that.

Now that's intelligence and creativity. But where does riyaaz come in? It comes in here that you should have that tremendous command over your voice to sing the swar-alankar perfectly.

Let's take a look at Manada's Laga Chunari Mein Daag's last Tarana. It's the height of difficulty. Not many dare to attempt that Bhairavi Tarana, and if they do, they make sure they practise 101 times. The story goes that Roshan saab told Mannada that no one else but he could sing it. And Why? Because of all the Golden Era singer, Manada was the most trained classically, and because of his intense riyaaz, he had the best command over his voice. Such that even Rafi didn't have.

Talking about Rafi, here's another story regarding Riyaaaz. He used to get up at 3 AM to do his riyaaz. At two famous concerts in Bangalore and US, he sang O Duniya Ke Rakhwale. THe line "mahal udaas aur galiyan sooni", he sang it in EIGHT different ragas then and there! Until you do riyaaz to get your command of the ragas right, you simply can't do it. Moreover, Rafi was the only male singer to have had the full human range of 3.5 octaves. He himself says he managed to hold the melody at that high only because of Riyaaz and nothing else.

One last thing.

Ever wondered why every other house in the south has a girl or a boy who can sing and sing really well? Because they're pushed into music at an early age, and are made to rigourously practise. (but then, you need something special to become famous😊😉).

There's a saying in Kannada - Haadtha haadtha raga, naraltha naraltha roga. (you perfect a raga by singing and singing and singing, and you get a disease by moaning and moaning)😆

To the above discussion, Rahul replied, and I replied back. Here's the transcript.

but to clear a few things:

1. punjini is the one who stated that riyaaz is monontonous drill, not me. Sorry, got mistaken

2. in my mind, riyaaz is a combination of "rote learning" + physical excerize of the vocal chords etc. That's in your mind. Ask a musician and he'll say otherwise. Learning is different, riyaaz is different. Riyaaz is SIMPLY to condition your gala and to maintain the ability to hit the right surs. I do have a problem with EXCESS of that. All of us do. Classical musicians, the hardcore vocalists do a LOT of riyaaz. The other light singers don't. It depends on what kind of a singer you are. we all have finite hours in a day. someone had previously mentioned that someone was great because they spent 16 hours a day on that drill. well, that does not leave any time for non-rote learning and experimentation (note: rote learning is a very elementary form of learning). again, i do consider drill as essential, but i do have a problem when we get to extremes. The setup of Indian Music is actually quite different from a lot of other things that require learning.

Here's a simple example to illustrate my point.

Let's take the Raag Bhairav, which is the first raag taught to music students.

Aa - S r G m P d N S'. Av - S' N d P m G r S

When this raag is taught, the master first sings the raag, and the students repeat until they've got the raag-lakshan and the meends right. Indian Music has never been a written form, it's always been a vocal form. There's a reason for that. In every raag, the swars are sung differently!!! For example, the Sa of the Kalyan, is different from the Sa of the hippity-hoppity Bhopali is different from the melancholic Sa of the Puriya Dhanashree etc. This HAS to be practised to get the right effect. No amount of genius, self-analysis etc etc will get these nuances right. It has to be riyaaz.

Moving on, now that's the basic raga structure of Bhairav. Suppose you're my student. I teach you this Raag in its entirety. I teach you the basic structure of Raga presentation including the Alaap, Gat, Jor, Jhala, Khayal etc. At my place, when you're learning the real thing, you keep repeating after me until you get it right. That's rote-learning, and that's the basic kind of learning involved in music. It's like science. You need to get your basics right before you do some new research of your own. Can you engineer genes without knowing the basics of DNA synthesis and endonuclease action? Similarly, you need to perfect your raga basics first before you can talk of creativity. Learning the basics of science doesn't hamper your creativy, IF, and IF you have an aptitude for it. An exactly similar thing happens in music too.

Where does Riyaaz come in here? During you Riyaaz, you DO NOT practise the above structure of the said Raga. You simply sing all the notes, in a slow deliberate fashion, including heavy and rigourous breathing exercises. Note, that these exercises do not cause any harm to the body, in fact, they increase the Tidal Volume and Vital Capacity of your lungs, which is always an added asset when singing.

See, now is it clear? The difference between rote learning and riyaaz? Now when I tell you go and present a Khayal in Raag Bhairav, my dear friend, at that moment on stage, YOU improvise. It's not what you have practised. It's you creativity that comes into play. It's upto you to decide how to showcase the bhaav, and your vocal prowess in front of the audience. Riyaaz helps in making your throat automatically hit the right swars without you thinking for too long.

Now do you get the difference between rote learning and Riyaaz?

3. along the way, i did dispel the notion that indian music is better or worse because it is so "hard" for a westerner to learn; That's because of the entirely different setups. Indian Music is non-harmonic, western music is completely harmonic. That makes it tough for the westerner. Because he thinks Harmonically in every sense. But it's easier for an Indian to adapt to western music.

4. i brought out the notion that, like it or not, there is nothing ethicaly wrong with pich correction as long as it is not in the context of a competition. True. But there are two sides to every coin. Punjiniji has summed it up perfectly in the said thread.

5. i did state that there is a father-son legacy. i think it is surtaal who has been saying otherwise. Nope, you talked about the father-son legacy being restricted to only 5-10. It's all a question of bringing it out into the public or supressing it. Like Amit Kumar and Varsha Bhosle.

6. as for creativity, my feeling is that learning, exposure to different styles, some drill, an ability to make associations, an ability to self-analyze and also have a feel for what is appealing are some of the ingredients. drill-type riyaaz is the least important of all of these. Riyaaz is as important as everything else. When you learn Hindustani/Carnatic classical yourself, you'll know. By now, I hope the misconception about Riyaaz is clear. Refer to the analogy between science basics and practise. Also refer to the analogy between the stretching exercises an athlete does. They're the motions he goes thru to keep his body supple. His running practise entirely different.

7. in western schools, they spend very little time having people perfect their vocal frequencies etc. Not really. Read Celine Dion's interview, and read how she was trained. In the middle ages, they used to cut off the testicles of choir boys to retain their feminine vocal frequencies😆. Only thing is, as I've said again, in their music, they don't have Ragas, they don't have even 1/10th the kind of ornamentations we use, they don't sing one Note about 10 different ways etc. That's why they don't need much voice conditioning. They are allowed to be individuals and learn to create a piece the way they can. it allows someone to experiment with what works best for them. it opens them at an early age to experimentation while they are learning and doing some drill. All the western musicians I know, keep playing the pieces of the masters. I've hardly known many to compose themselves. Whereas, let me tell you this, EVERY...i mean EVERY Hindustani Musician composes when he gives a concert. He has to. The raga is taught. But the 'cheez' is his own composition and on the spot improvisation.

8. i respect the cultural traditions of the south. a lot. as a delhi punjabi, i have often lamented amongst family and friends about the lack of same in our region. True. After living in Delhi for 10 years, I've noticed the same. When I came down here this summer, I was heartened to see the Boys still do their morning puja, sport the vibhuti and vermillion on their foreheads, along with pubbing and mall-ing😆. And many of my relatives are still pushing their children to learn carnatic classical. My 6 year old cousin learns.

yaar, what's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? to state certain points lawyer-like in one's own fashion and to then attribute a lawyer-type defense on someone else's part is disingenuous, no? also, when we are quoting someone, pls do so with replies as well. thx.

0. you are missing a huge point of MY excercize. to my mind, it is not just about getting one terminology (riaz) right, it is to understand how the different activities in learning music (whether one calls it riaz or breaks it down into components) relates to creativity etc. For me, the purpose is to not just have a theoretical definition of riaz, but to relate it to what people actually do.

1. that entire discussion on father-legacy factor, case of firing at the wrong target? firing shots at someone, rather than on their position? i suggest u have that discussion with surtaal, as i previously stated right here on this forum.

2. rote learning. as mentioned in my reply to you, i had used it as a loose analogy. pls understand that i often cant be bothered to get precise with my wording in pms, so dont hold those out as shining examples in my case. wld make my english teachers very sad. but in my replies here on the forum, i am using the word drill-type riyaaz. usually considered more accurate to bring out the entire context, no?

3. rather than work with different definitions of riyaaz that were floating around, i preferred later to talk about drill-type riyaaz. i am seeing the vocal chords excercise as monotonous, but given punjini's reaction on 2nd thots i shld have been careful using that pejorative term in the pm. now, as for what is there on the first page, we seem to have offered further clarifications along the way, on this and the earlier thread. there is a certain context for everything that creates a certain understanding. especially if one doesnt correct.

4. western music. as stated in my reply, i felt in western classical/ choir singing, it is true that folks have to practise with the vocal chords. true for some singers in the pop/ rock mold (whitney houston?) as well, but only some. similar distinctions in indian music- whether it is classical or indian filmi music (my lumping together of the pop/ rock).

in some of the stuff you have in bold in that section, there again seems to be imprecision between composer and singer. are you talking about western classical? my impression still holds nevertheless, all that intermittent bold notwithstanding.

folks here learn at a very young age to assess and feel their own natural abilities and personalities, and do not necessarily persist for 20 years (Zakir Hussain?) with getting 5 raagas under control, even if their inner personal creativity is not in tune with those raagas. at times, we might be fighting our own true nature, ever thought of that? if you are naturally gifted at math, shld u make a career out of english because your folks thot u shld learn english? can u be really expected to be creative then?

5. wld be happy for you to also post my note to you this morning as a reply to your PM. there i do mention how there is a problem when folks cannot communicate the ideas of their own culture effectively, and someone else can. it follows up on the trail i was on last nite. to just rail and deride other cultures/ MDs/ individuals, that is not communication. look within to find answers to why the new gen is running away from classical music. a guru who jumps off and hits angrily at others/ rails against others is no guru, sorry to say. a guru who is not open to the best ideas (whatever the source, wherever the origin) to impart to his shishyas is no guru.

good that u were able to add to the definitions/ understanding of what riyaaz is. 👍🏼

Originally posted by: apparaohoare

Welcome back Bro. We missed you a lot.

One more info for you here. Hemant kumar had a son and a daughter. His son's name is Babu who is married to actress Mousumi Chatterji, and daughter is Ranu Mukherjee. She is a singer too and a very close friend of Kavita Krishnamurti.

good that we have abhi back. at least we got folks to support the father-child legacy point i was making, inadvertent support though it might have been😛