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Barnali thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#81
here's a reminder -

"MUSIC AND MARKETING DO NOT MIX"

Coming on the topic of progeny of musicians making it big. Only 5-10?

Here's a little exercise. Read up on what a 'Gharana' in music is😉.

7-8 generations of musicians...simple example - the Dagar Family. You must've heard of Ust. Wasafudding Dagar. Then the Bangash Family. The Mishra family of Benaras Gharana, Khan parivar of the Rampur Gharana, the Khans of the Patiala, Kirana Gharnas. Pt. Jasraj and his forefathers from the Mewati Gharana etc. In music, this is the rule, rather than the exception.

If we talk about Rafi sahab, do you know, he never ever encouraged music in his house. He had forbidden even his wife from listening to music, to bachche kya seekhenge? Amit Kumar in an interview said that he simply desisted the rat race of the industry and he was too much a mast maula to become a playback singer, so he left.

Nitin Mukesh🤢.

Asha's daughter is a fabulous singer! I've heard her in concert with her mother and Suresh Wadkar. She's supremely talented. But her mom didn't want her to get into the rat race again. And after seeing her mother suffer in her early stages in the industry, she quit. She was badmouthed at her college too. So she resorted to a better talent she had...writing. Talat Mahmood's son is a respected Ghazal Singer. If you listen to his albums, you'll feel that yes, the legacy of his legendary father is being carried forward by him. But where's the market now for such songs in films? That's why he didn't succeed in films...in fact, he never tried to enter. But his Ghazal albums are famous in the niche audience. Check them out, his name is Khalid Mahmood.
Mannada didn't have any children, so his legacy is done with. Hemantda...i dunno about him. Lata doesn't have any children either. Roshan sahab's legacy was continued by his son Rajesh Roshan who gave some of the biggest hits of the 70s and early 80s and now with his brother Rakesh Roshan.

Talking of riyaaz, i'll clear up some points which have not been touched by others in that thread.

1) Riyaaz is NOT monotonous! I've seen someone close practise, and she definitely doesn't do the same thing over and over again (and she's a carnatic musician, which's supposed to be more monotonous)

2) Riyaaz is simply conditioning of the voice and practising to hit the sur rightly. There's a specific way to do riyaaz. You have to get up at the first pahar of the day, sit facing the sun in padmasan, do pranayam first, and then start riyaaz with a tanpura. And riyaaz is NEVER done vigourously, as you might've got it wrong since i say a post regarding muscle fatigue etc. Riyaaz is a low pitched, sloooooooooooooooow expansion of notes, savouring each one like you might eat a <insert favourite sweet here>.

3) You do NOT sing compositions in riyaaz.

4) About creativity; riyaaz and creativity are two different things. Why do some vocalists and instrumentalists become A-Grade and others remain B-grade (as rated by SRA)? It's because of the attitude and amount of creativity and musical intelligence. Some people sing for the heck of it. Some people do it with passion. The main objective of classical music is to evoke emotions. Each of the seven swars denote an emotion. The combination of these intellgently, leads to a raga which emotes a certain rasa. While expanding a Raga during the presentation of the 'cheez', it is incumbant upon the singer to determine how he should improvise. Does he want subtle emotivity (is there such a word) or does he want powerful in-your-face emotions? I'll give you an example. ML Vasanthakumari is the most reknowned RTP singer (ragam-thanam-pallavi). Now, RTP is the most complex thing a carnatic musician can handle! It takes the jeebies out of me to even understand it! MLV handled it most beautifully. And, RTP is ENTIRELY based on your creativity and understanding. IT's fully creative and improvisatory in nature. For example., there's a famous swar-alankar by her where she keeps hitting the Nishadha (Ni) after every detour to the other swaras of the Todi ragam. Ni produces pathos, and rahul, i've seen my uncle literally cry after that barrage of swar-alankar!

Now that's intelligence and creativity. But where does riyaaz come in? It comes in here that you should have that tremendous command over your voice to sing the swar-alankar perfectly.

Let's take a look at Manada's Laga Chunari Mein Daag's last Tarana. It's the height of difficulty. Not many dare to attempt that Bhairavi Tarana, and if they do, they make sure they practise 101 times. The story goes that Roshan saab told Mannada that no one else but he could sing it. And Why? Because of all the Golden Era singer, Manada was the most trained classically, and because of his intense riyaaz, he had the best command over his voice. Such that even Rafi didn't have.

Talking about Rafi, here's another story regarding Riyaaaz. He used to get up at 3 AM to do his riyaaz. At two famous concerts in Bangalore and US, he sang O Duniya Ke Rakhwale. THe line "mahal udaas aur galiyan sooni", he sang it in EIGHT different ragas then and there! Until you do riyaaz to get your command of the ragas right, you simply can't do it. Moreover, Rafi was the only male singer to have had the full human range of 3.5 octaves. He himself says he managed to hold the melody at that high only because of Riyaaz and nothing else.

One last thing.

Ever wondered why every other house in the south has a girl or a boy who can sing and sing really well? Because they're pushed into music at an early age, and are made to rigourously practise. (but then, you need something special to become famous😊).

There's a saying in Kannada - Haadtha haadtha raga, naraltha naraltha roga. (you perfect a raga by singing and singing and singing, and you get a disease by moaning and moaning)😆

Surtaal thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#82
There is another in kannada or was it telugu that conveys:
A person that does not know music thinks whatever he sings is a song.

Haadithe Haad ra . . . .

chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#83

"POSITIONS WHICH CHANGE AND EVOLVE"?

1. Coming on the topic of progeny of musicians making it big. Only 5-10?

the entire sermon that followed that line should perhaps be directed elsewhere? i was the one who suggested that there wld be a father-son legacy, someone else countered that that factor did not exist. the 5-10 figures were used to illustrate a point, not literally. and in one of those same posts, i talked about it not being "real" data. still, thanks for supporting my point. 😉

2. as for what riyaaz is or is not, i have simply relied on the various and at times wildly divergent definitions offered by folks who supposedly do or undersand riyaaz themselves. 😛 if you read my post immediately prior to this one, you will see that i have previously brought the issue of "moving target", "imprecision", changing definition.

as for the new understanding of riyaaz that you provide, pls come up with whatever definition u want. it shld be clear by now the specific definition that i have a problem with. to then say i have a problem with various other definitions of riyaaz is fallacious. 😡

3. yes, i did suggest excessive drill-type riyaaz has muscle-depleting and other issues. just when we thought we had watered it down, we come up with someone with a different drill. 😛 yaar, sort it out first and then let's talk.

4. as for traditions of the south, i have deep respect for those, even though i am not from the south. and by traditions, i mean at least in terms of religious teachings, music... 👏

5. in general, there are other sources of confusion. at times we seem to be comparing western classical with indian classical, at other times western pop/ rock with indian classical, and at other times with indian film music. pls do note my previous post to surtaal as well. some additional points there too. 😕

6. other questions in my long post, the one with Mrs Robinson. 😉

7. can someone offer a prescription for how one shld spend the finite 24 hours we all have every day? split it out between drill, learning, experimentation, other... 😛 Should we reserve 16 hrs for drill and expect the other things to not suffer?

8. are we thru with the regression equations, or do we want more of it? 😛

9. to ""MUSIC AND MARKETING DO NOT MIX" (which sort of comes out of nowhere into this thread, lemme add ... On second thoughts, lemme not add!😛


so is this a case of "mistaken identity", especially with the first point above? if we separate the message from the sender, we will get a more accurate undersatnding of the message, no? 😉

Edited by chatbuster - 19 years ago
HariOm thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#84

Originally posted by: Barnali

here's a reminder -

"MUSIC AND MARKETING DO NOT MIX"


Mannada didn't have any children, so his legacy is done with.



I liked your analysis. Just one correction. Manna Da has 2 daughters. Both of them are very good singers. MannaDe Ji did not want them to join the music industry rat race. He said in a show: "I have seen sisters fighting to go to the top spot". (No need to metion who he was talking about)

He did not want a war in the house and the girls had seen it too. Hence even they were not so keen to risk their sisterhood for a music career. Both of them live in the USA
chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#85

Punjini, i would have thought that "learning" is the word you want, not drill-type riyaaz. (of course, one needs a basic minimum riyaaz in any field to have the necessary proficiency..) As pointed out in my earlier post to surtaal, there is at best a weak-to-medium relation between even education and creativity (based on the limited research i came across in this area on the net). my contention is that drill would have even less correlation, since it is so much more limited than education.

now creativity is something which an individual can control to some level, because they do control the extent of their own education. of course, there are aspects they cant control such as innate talent, genes and these are often much more important. But success is a totally different ball-game. there, we do get into additional issues of marketing, performance, god-father etc. Whether success is harder or easier to achieve than creativity depends on individual circumstances, genes etc.

as for the music schools you mentioned, that is something i subscribe to (as opposed to the uni-dimensional guru-shishya system). it is like a kid taking music education in NYU. it's precisely what i meant when i was talking about music education and creativity. of course, those schools can also provide courses for career enhancement, thereby possibly helping with success.

Edited by chatbuster - 19 years ago
Surtaal thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#86
All,

A very nice article that I found regarding Riaz. Please review.

All our previous posts have been very enjoyable with digressions into the realm of legacy, sucess, statistical manipulations etc. etc.

The article at the following URL is very lucid.

http://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/bansuri11simms.pdf
Surtaal thumbnail
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Posted: 19 years ago
#87
All,

A very nice article that I found regarding Riaz. Please review.

All our previous posts have been very enjoyable with digressions into the realm of legacy, sucess, statistical manipulations etc. etc.

The article at the following URL is very lucid.

http://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/bansuri11simms.pdf
punjini thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#88
Surtaalji
I must commend you for directing us to such a WONDERFUL article. I am reading it now and would recommend this to everyone else here who wants to know what riyaaz is.
sangeetaa thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Navigator Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#89

Originally posted by: Surtaal

All,

A very nice article that I found regarding Riaz. Please review.

All our previous posts have been very enjoyable with digressions into the realm of legacy, sucess, statistical manipulations etc. etc.

The article at the following URL is very lucid.

http://www.pathcom.com/~ericp/bansuri11simms.pdf

So Surtaal-ji and punjini-ji: Then riyaz can be considered a form of 'sadhana' in your experience?

chatbuster thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail
Posted: 19 years ago
#90

Originally posted by: sangeetaa

So Surtaal-ji and punjini-ji: Then riyaz can be considered a form of 'sadhana' in your experience?

though the qn was directed to others, lemme take a stab...

i think the author wld certainly consider it so.

but as he himself points out, the interpretation he offers is of the ideal riaz. he mentions too that some noteworthy researchers differ in important ways even on intellectual grounds. also, practice often falls short, something we might understand given that even the learned folks here have differed as to the true meaning of riaz.

to my mind, the "ideal" is something to strive for. but realities of life today make it hard to actualize. for starters, does one really hope to find that ideal guru? this is not meant to deride the concept, but more in a futilistic sense. it is like finding the ideal instructor in not one but different subject areas. someone could be great at providing music instruction. would they be similarly great at imparting the spiritual aspects? conversely, wld we really hope to find the student for whom riaz is nothing more than lip-service devotion the author mentions in certain contexts?

to my mind, some of the differences between "ideal" and "practised" forms of riaz are similar to those when we deal with religion. practice often falls disappointingly short of what the true theoretical teachings are.

i felt the overriding theme was that riaz was a complete art in itself, subsuming learning, experimentation, practice, humility, devotion, rigors all in one. overall an excellent presentation of what the author takes riaz to mean and of what he thinks it should mean. but given the style in which it was presented, he seems to still leave it up to the individual as to what he/ she makes riaz out to be. my 2-cents

Edited by chatbuster - 19 years ago

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