Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 93

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RamKiSeeta thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
Beautiful explanation Vibhishna!šŸ‘ You have written the duties of Raja Ram very well, and have brought up great points!
chen2chic thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
Vibs- great points and you explain them so beautifully and dutifully.....
And regarding the woman Usha, I wonder if some version mentions about her after her disappearance........
It would be nice if she found shelter with some great sage and turned her life towards the Lord, but I feel she most probably drowned in the Sarayu giving up her life bcoz she did not have a purpose to live and in her case "Justice delayed was justice denied"..
As for Sanjeevan, he should also be punished for not caring about his wife. It was his duty to look for his wife when she did not return within the said time.......He sits waiting for her and already he has started making all assumptions........... And obviously when he saw his wife the next morning, he vented out all his assumptions....Had he gone in search of her and met her halfway things would have been solved then and there.......
_rajnish_ thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
oopsšŸ˜• sorry for wishing too late, actually i was quite busy in last few days.
Congrats ananya for becoming Goldie šŸ˜›, here is something for you



EnjoyšŸ˜ƒšŸ˜›



Edited by Rajnish_Kumar - 16 years ago
ananyacool thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
Thank you so much RajnishšŸ¤—šŸ¤—
Love the chocolates, Wine and tomato soup!! šŸ˜‰šŸ˜†
Man! I can't believe I've crossed 1000!! took a long time....
anyways enjoying 1000 PM limit 😃
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
Thanks Lalitha and Deepa.

I agree with Deepa that Sanjeevan should be punished. Had be really cared about her, he would have looked for her when he learned that she did not return instead of pacing up and down in his own house. He was the one who failed in his duty by not searching for his wife. If he had gone in search of her and if he had really cared for her he would have understood her predicament. If he had found her on time or atleast seen her that night, she would have spent the night with him anywhere - either outside or in someone else's home and she would not have been blamed.

I feel if she had drowned herself in Sarayu or some other river, it would have definitely been a case of justice denied and the womanfolk would have said that Ram never gave justice to her. This is the reason I prefer to think that she had been given shelter by some sage. Sanjeevan would never accept her back whole heartedly. She would have been better off in an ashram. I just hope her son was well cared for.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: chen2chic

Firstly thanks Vibs for posting Bhavabhuti's URC. I gotto read it thro' your post.

Going thro urs & Chandra's points, I have a bi.......g doubtšŸ¤” Was it not Shatrughan & Pushkal (Bharat's son) who accompany the horse? Sorry I have not read the original Valmiki version of the uttarkhand and may be wrong too....

In Valmiki, Lakshman accompanies the horse. No battle takes place.
In Padma Puran, Shatrughan accompanies the horse, not as ruler of Mathura, but as prince of Ayodhya, and is accompanied here by Subahu and Yutaketu (the name of his other son here, don't remember it exactly, Valmiki had that son as Shatrughatee). During this trip, the war with Lavanasura takes place which is fought by both Shatrughan and his sons vs Lavana and his. Ultimately, Lavana and his sons are all killed, Shatrughan installs his sons Subahu and the other as the ruler of Mathura and Vidisha, and continues travelling with the horse, until he is accosted by Luv and Kush.
In Bhavabhuti, Chandraketu accompanies the horse, the manner that Vibs described.
Frankly, I believe Valmiki - Kush & Luv weren't involved in any battles.

Originally posted by: chen2chic

And I think Bharat establishes the kingdoms for his sons after the AY. And so does Lakshman for his sons. I think throughout except Shatrughan, the other three brothers are together. And Ram sent for Shatrughan from Mathura when he decided to merge in the Sarayu, meaning B&L were with him. Correct me if I am wrong.

As per Valmiki, you are partly correct. Lakshman is done in by the combination of Ka'al and Durvasha, and after Rama, in lieu of executing him, disowns him, he goes to the Sarayu and in a meditative trance passes away, and Indra carries his body back to Vaikuntha. Rama, despite disowning Lakshman, is distraught at his demise and announces that he's stepping down, and invites Bharat to take over. Bharat declines, and instead suggests that Kush be given Uttar Kosala and Luv Dakshin Kosala. That is hastily done, and the 2 are quickly sent away to Kushavati and Shravasti.
After this, a message is sent to Shatrughan with the details, and the info that Rama is stepping down. Shatrughan hastily installs Subahu at Mathura and Shatrughatee in Vidisha, and returns to Ayodhya to join Rama and Bharat. The rest is history.

Originally posted by: chen2chic

And Vibs - does the KR have Uttar kand as well or is it only till the Pattabhishekam?

By KR, if you mean Kamban, I read that he openly said that the UttarRamayan breaks his heart, and therefore, he was not including it in the narration. At least, that's what the intro of the Sagar Uttarkand 20 years ago had it.

Originally posted by: chen2chic

And truly the cartoon Sita does not merge with the character of real Sita. But then, even if the praja had sought an apology from Sita without her going thro any ordeal, I doubt if she would have accepted to be their queen. The main reason for the praja was that they did not accept the result when the test was not conducted in front of their eyes. If she had gone thro another agnipariksha in front of avadh praja, maybe they would accept her. But again, if Ayodhya accepts, there maybe rumours elsewhere. How many times would she have to prove herself? People did not realise that a proof is a proof, be it once or many times. But Sita had realised this, and the moment she was asked to prove the second time, she PROVED it...period!

Your guess is as good as mine, but it would boil down to the question of whether Sita wanted Rama more than she didn't want to be queen of Ayodhya. I tend to think that if the prajas, for whatever reason, had raised no more questions (say they believed the sung version of Valmiki from her kids, or say the Bhavabhuti version is right and they saw her relieve Rama) and Rama had invited her back, she'd have accepted it, as it would have given her back her Rama. I don't believe she liked leaving for Rasootal, but her choices were pretty much forced on her.

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: chen2chic

Had Ram really rejected Sita, as per your words, he would have not not installed her golden statue for the yagna, rather would have had another living wife sitting beside him for the yagna.....
Hope you understand it atleast now................

I don't mean to agree with Rocha, but the first time a golden statue is mentioned is 7:99, after Sita's passing. In other words, there is no mention of a golden statue of Sita being used for that Ashwamedha yagna, nor any mention of Rama being asked to re-marry.

It makes sense too. If Sita the person was unacceptable to the Avadhis as their Maharani, how would her statue be any more acceptable or chaste? - it's after all a representation of her. So I'd think that Rama could not have put her statue there any more than he could have had her herself there - for identical reasons. Once Sita took her vow, he'd have had her participate in future yagnas, but since she was no longer available, he had her golden statue play her role. In that sense, you are right in your rebuttal - had Rama doubted or rejected Sita, he'd not have put her statue there either, but would have gone on to marry someone else instead.
Exit question: did Rama actually vow to Sita that she'd be his only wife, as depicted in both the Sagar Ramayans? I read both 1:76 and 2:1, and nowhere do I see him having made such a vow. Is there any other place in Valmiki where he makes this vow?
Edited by Chandraketu - 16 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Thanks Lalitha and Deepa.

I agree with Deepa that Sanjeevan should be punished. Had be really cared about her, he would have looked for her when he learned that she did not return instead of pacing up and down in his own house. He was the one who failed in his duty by not searching for his wife. If he had gone in search of her and if he had really cared for her he would have understood her predicament. If he had found her on time or atleast seen her that night, she would have spent the night with him anywhere - either outside or in someone else's home and she would not have been blamed.

I feel if she had drowned herself in Sarayu or some other river, it would have definitely been a case of justice denied and the womanfolk would have said that Ram never gave justice to her. This is the reason I prefer to think that she had been given shelter by some sage. Sanjeevan would never accept her back whole heartedly. She would have been better off in an ashram. I just hope her son was well cared for.

Vibs

This is the Sagar version - Sanjivan and Usha are pure Sagar creations. In the original Valmiki, seems like it was a Dhobi who threw out his wife on the grounds that she had spent the night in another man's house, but there, unlike in this case, no more details were given. So it's unclear whether the original victim was actually guilty or innocent.

I've always had problems with Rama exiling Sita, but one thing he did do here - he made it possible for himself to be perceived to be ruling fairly in matters of gender controversies. Had he kept Sita and made rulings, say, favoring Usha, people would have made snide equivalencies between Sita & Usha. Once he got rid of Sita, no one could have said that, and he could have then ruled unfavorably against men who ill-treated their wives, since nobody could have accused him of being in the clutches of his own. But even though I understand this, I hate it even more.😔

Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago
Congrats Ananya šŸ‘

Sorry, I'm so late.


Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Vibs

This is the Sagar version - Sanjivan and Usha are pure Sagar creations. In the original Valmiki, seems like it was a Dhobi who threw out his wife on the grounds that she had spent the night in another man's house, but there, unlike in this case, no more details were given. So it's unclear whether the original victim was actually guilty or innocent.

I've always had problems with Rama exiling Sita, but one thing he did do here - he made it possible for himself to be perceived to be ruling fairly in matters of gender controversies. Had he kept Sita and made rulings, say, favoring Usha, people would have made snide equivalencies between Sita & Usha. Once he got rid of Sita, no one could have said that, and he could have then ruled unfavorably against men who ill-treated their wives, since nobody could have accused him of being in the clutches of his own. But even though I understand this, I hate it even more.😔



I agree this is the Sagar version but I end up discussing any version till I understand it fully - a habit of mine.

I too read the Valmiki version of the dhobi just accusing his wife of spending the night elsewhere and it was not clear whether she was actually guilty.

I was just wondering what happened to Usha in this Sagar version of Ramayan.

I'd think Ram could have atleast asked Sanjeevan a proof of his accusations and whehter he made any attempt to find out where his wife was when he found her missing.

Its true that he did what he had to do and I too hated the fact he had to do it. Not blaming Ram for any reason here but it was disheartening to see a couple who should have enjoyed a long lasting happiness being separated.

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