Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 28

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Quick question - what was the period in history that Kamban lived/wrote his Ramayan? I know that Tulsidas wrote his in the 16th century, but does anyone know when the various versions of the Ramayan (other than Valmiki's) were written?

These are just some of the versions and many more do exist.

1) North India - The RAMCHARITRAMANAS written by Tulsidas in the 16th century is the Ramayana version popular in North India.

2)JAMMU AND KASHMIR - The Kashmiri "Ramavatara Charita" was written in 19th century.

3)PANJAB- The Ramavatara written in 17th century by Guru Gobind Singh.

4)GUJRAT-The Tulsi-krita Ramayana is a Gujarati adaptation of Tulisdas' Ramayana in 17th century by the poet Premanand.

5) MAHARASHTRA- The Marathi "Bhavartha Ramayana" written by Eknath in the 16th century. There is also reference of a Ramayana being translated into old Marathi during the 12th or 13th century.

6)ASSAM-The Assamese "Katha Ramayana" or "Kotha Ramayana" in 15th century by Madhava Kandali.

7)BENGAL- - The Bengali "Krittivas Ramayan" written by poet Krittivas in 15th century.

8)ORISSHA- The Oriya "Balramadasa Ramayana" was adapted by Balarama Das in the 16th century.

9)AANDHRA PRADESH- The "Sri Ranganatha Ramayana" was adapted by Buddha Reddy and is the Telugu version of the Ramayana

10)KARNATAKA- The KANNADA versions of the Ramayana ' the "Kumudendu Ramayana" (a jain version), written in 13th century and the "Kumara-Valmiki Torave Ramayana", written in the 16th century. There is another version titled "Ramachandra Charita Purana" written by Nagachandra during the 13th century.

11)TAMIL NADU-The Tamil "KAMBARAMAYANAM", a popular version, written by poet Kamban in the 12th century.

12)KERALA- The Malyalan "Adhyatma Ramayanam Kilipattu" written by Thunchththu Ezhuthachan in the 16th century.

An URDU version is called the "Pothi Ramayana" and was written in 17th century by Chak bast

OUTSIDE INDIA
In Thailand, the Ramayana has become the national epic, in the form of the Ramakian. Often performed as a play with elaborate masks and costumes, it details the story of Rama's battle against the giant demon king Totsakan. It differs from the Valmiki version mostly in names, but there are a few plot differences, including Sita giving birth to only one son, who is magically duplicated by the magician and hermit known in India as Valmiki. Also, almost all religious significance is removed from the story, as the Thai people are mostly Theravada Buddhists, and at most would say that Rama was Buddha in a former life.

Originally posted by: rajnish_here

I posted it ones i am copying from that post😃
There are three hundred to as many as thousands of versions of the RAMAYANA are known to exist. The oldest version is that of Valmiki in shanskrit . Some other versions are called Ananndha RAmayaNam , AdhyAtma RamayaNam , Kambha RamAyaNam , AruNAchala Kavi's Rama nAtakam , Bhavabhuthi's MahAveera Charitham ( 700-740 AD ), and Swami Desikan's ( 1268-1369 AD ) Raghu Veera Gadhyam.

In almost all of North India, the Tulsidas Ramayana, also known as the Ramcharitmanasa, is the most popular. Goswami Tulsidas rewrote the Valmiki version in Hindi in about 1574, changing it somewhat to emphasize Rama as an avatara (incarnation) of Vishnu. Another notable change was that Sita had a duplicate(chhaya sita), who was kidnapped while Sita remained safe.
The Kamban Ramayana is popular in the state of Tamil Nadu, and is of course written in Tamil. Segments of the story were changed to better reflect Tamil ideas, including Ravana not being as cruel to Sita.

These are just some of the versions and many more do exist.

1) North India - The RAMCHARITRAMANAS written by Tulsidas in the 16th century is the Ramayana version popular in North India.

2)JAMMU AND KASHMIR - The Kashmiri "Ramavatara Charita" was written in 19th century.

3)PANJAB- The Ramavatara written in 17th century by Guru Gobind Singh.

4)GUJRAT-The Tulsi-krita Ramayana is a Gujarati adaptation of Tulisdas' Ramayana in 17th century by the poet Premanand.

5) MAHARASHTRA- The Marathi "Bhavartha Ramayana" written by Eknath in the 16th century. There is also reference of a Ramayana being translated into old Marathi during the 12th or 13th century.

6)ASSAM-The Assamese "Katha Ramayana" or "Kotha Ramayana" in 15th century by Madhava Kandali.

7)BENGAL- - The Bengali "Krittivas Ramayan" written by poet Krittivas in 15th century.

8)ORISSHA- The Oriya "Balramadasa Ramayana" was adapted by Balarama Das in the 16th century.

9)AANDHRA PRADESH- The "Sri Ranganatha Ramayana" was adapted by Buddha Reddy and is the Telugu version of the Ramayana

10)KARNATAKA- The KANNADA versions of the Ramayana ' the "Kumudendu Ramayana" (a jain version), written in 13th century and the "Kumara-Valmiki Torave Ramayana", written in the 16th century. There is another version titled "Ramachandra Charita Purana" written by Nagachandra during the 13th century.

11)TAMIL NADU-The Tamil "KAMBARAMAYANAM", a popular version, written by poet Kamban in the 12th century.

12)KERALA- The Malyalan "Adhyatma Ramayanam Kilipattu" written by Thunchththu Ezhuthachan in the 16th century.

An URDU version is called the "Pothi Ramayana" and was written in 17th century by Chak bast

OUTSIDE INDIA
In Thailand, the Ramayana has become the national epic, in the form of the Ramakian. Often performed as a play with elaborate masks and costumes, it details the story of Rama's battle against the giant demon king Totsakan. It differs from the Valmiki version mostly in names, but there are a few plot differences, including Sita giving birth to only one son, who is magically duplicated by the magician and hermit known in India as Valmiki. Also, almost all religious significance is removed from the story, as the Thai people are mostly Theravada Buddhists, and at most would say that Rama was Buddha in a former life.

in Indonesia, the Ramayana is performed as a puppet show with elaborate stylized characters. A few differences from the Valmiki version include Rama's mother being paralyzed, the lack of a Shatrugna character (Rama's third brother), and an elaborate subplot about the family of Ravana, or in this version, Rahwana. The stories behind many of the characters are very different (the monkey tribe was originally human in this version and was transformed by a magic lake), but the events are nearly identical.

folk and tribal versions

Besides the literary works and rework of Ramayana, there are many folk versions too. These folk versions don't have any written or documented versions. They are preserved from generations to generation and add a very interesting flavour to story of Ramayana.

One the most interesting folk version is the popular Mappila Ramayana, part of Mappillapttu, a genre of popular folk singing amongst the Muslims of Kerala and Lakshadweep. Being of Muslim origin, the hero of this story is a sultan. There are no major changes in the names of characters except for that of Rama's which is changed to 'Laman'. The language and the imagery projected in the Mappilapattu are in accordance with the social fabric of the earlier Muslim community.

There are many tribal versions of Ramayana found in India. Each of them adding further more twist and flavours to the story of Ramayana. The tribal versions, in particular are least known to the modern world and are on the verge of being destroyed under influence of rapidly expanding globalization.

Originally posted by: Mandodari

Thanks Rajnish. Ram was considered an avatar of Vishnu long before Tulsidasji. In Tamil Sangam literature, which spans 200 BCE to 200 CE (CE standing for common era, AD to folks in India), there are references to incarnations of Vishnu and Ram avatar is considered an incarnation of Vishnu as early as 200 BCE itself. A work called 'Paripatal' enumerates the qualities of Vishnu and his incarnations. The list of incarnations include Ram avatar. Also, there is a very ancient Sangam period Ramayan called Purananuru, a collection of 400 poems, which addresses Ram as an incarnation of Vishnu.

You are very correct about the indigenous folk traditions. It is very sad that this rich and ancient tradition is not being recorded for posterity.

Originally posted by: rajnish_here

I posted it ones i am copying from that post😃
There are three hundred to as many as thousands of versions of the RAMAYANA are known to exist. The oldest version is that of Valmiki in shanskrit . Some other versions are called Ananndha RAmayaNam , AdhyAtma RamayaNam , Kambha RamAyaNam , AruNAchala Kavi's Rama nAtakam , Bhavabhuthi's MahAveera Charitham ( 700-740 AD ), and Swami Desikan's ( 1268-1369 AD ) Raghu Veera Gadhyam.

In almost all of North India, the Tulsidas Ramayana, also known as the Ramcharitmanasa, is the most popular. Goswami Tulsidas rewrote the Valmiki version in Hindi in about 1574, changing it somewhat to emphasize Rama as an avatara (incarnation) of Vishnu. Another notable change was that Sita had a duplicate(chhaya sita), who was kidnapped while Sita remained safe.
The Kamban Ramayana is popular in the state of Tamil Nadu, and is of course written in Tamil. Segments of the story were changed to better reflect Tamil ideas, including Ravana not being as cruel to Sita.

These are just some of the versions and many more do exist.

1) North India - The RAMCHARITRAMANAS written by Tulsidas in the 16th century is the Ramayana version popular in North India.

2)JAMMU AND KASHMIR - The Kashmiri "Ramavatara Charita" was written in 19th century.

3)PANJAB- The Ramavatara written in 17th century by Guru Gobind Singh.

4)GUJRAT-The Tulsi-krita Ramayana is a Gujarati adaptation of Tulisdas' Ramayana in 17th century by the poet Premanand.

5) MAHARASHTRA- The Marathi "Bhavartha Ramayana" written by Eknath in the 16th century. There is also reference of a Ramayana being translated into old Marathi during the 12th or 13th century.

6)ASSAM-The Assamese "Katha Ramayana" or "Kotha Ramayana" in 15th century by Madhava Kandali.

7)BENGAL- - The Bengali "Krittivas Ramayan" written by poet Krittivas in 15th century.

8)ORISSHA- The Oriya "Balramadasa Ramayana" was adapted by Balarama Das in the 16th century.

9)AANDHRA PRADESH- The "Sri Ranganatha Ramayana" was adapted by Buddha Reddy and is the Telugu version of the Ramayana

10)KARNATAKA- The KANNADA versions of the Ramayana ' the "Kumudendu Ramayana" (a jain version), written in 13th century and the "Kumara-Valmiki Torave Ramayana", written in the 16th century. There is another version titled "Ramachandra Charita Purana" written by Nagachandra during the 13th century.

11)TAMIL NADU-The Tamil "KAMBARAMAYANAM", a popular version, written by poet Kamban in the 12th century.

12)KERALA- The Malyalan "Adhyatma Ramayanam Kilipattu" written by Thunchththu Ezhuthachan in the 16th century.

An URDU version is called the "Pothi Ramayana" and was written in 17th century by Chak bast

OUTSIDE INDIA
In Thailand, the Ramayana has become the national epic, in the form of the Ramakian. Often performed as a play with elaborate masks and costumes, it details the story of Rama's battle against the giant demon king Totsakan. It differs from the Valmiki version mostly in names, but there are a few plot differences, including Sita giving birth to only one son, who is magically duplicated by the magician and hermit known in India as Valmiki. Also, almost all religious significance is removed from the story, as the Thai people are mostly Theravada Buddhists, and at most would say that Rama was Buddha in a former life.

in Indonesia, the Ramayana is performed as a puppet show with elaborate stylized characters. A few differences from the Valmiki version include Rama's mother being paralyzed, the lack of a Shatrugna character (Rama's third brother), and an elaborate subplot about the family of Ravana, or in this version, Rahwana. The stories behind many of the characters are very different (the monkey tribe was originally human in this version and was transformed by a magic lake), but the events are nearly identical.

folk and tribal versions

Besides the literary works and rework of Ramayana, there are many folk versions too. These folk versions don't have any written or documented versions. They are preserved from generations to generation and add a very interesting flavour to story of Ramayana.

One the most interesting folk version is the popular Mappila Ramayana, part of Mappillapttu, a genre of popular folk singing amongst the Muslims of Kerala and Lakshadweep. Being of Muslim origin, the hero of this story is a sultan. There are no major changes in the names of characters except for that of Rama's which is changed to 'Laman'. The language and the imagery projected in the Mappilapattu are in accordance with the social fabric of the earlier Muslim community.

There are many tribal versions of Ramayana found in India. Each of them adding further more twist and flavours to the story of Ramayana. The tribal versions, in particular are least known to the modern world and are on the verge of being destroyed under influence of rapidly expanding globalization.

Originally posted by: Mandodari

Thanks Rajnish. Ram was considered an avatar of Vishnu long before Tulsidasji. In Tamil Sangam literature, which spans 200 BCE to 200 CE (CE standing for common era, AD to folks in India), there are references to incarnations of Vishnu and Ram avatar is considered an incarnation of Vishnu as early as 200 BCE itself. A work called 'Paripatal' enumerates the qualities of Vishnu and his incarnations. The list of incarnations include Ram avatar. Also, there is a very ancient Sangam period Ramayan called Purananuru, a collection of 400 poems, which addresses Ram as an incarnation of Vishnu.

You are very correct about the indigenous folk traditions. It is very sad that this rich and ancient tradition is not being recorded for posterity.

Originally posted by: rajnish_here

wow mandodary never heard of these before😃 thanks for these information👏, BTW your post about various version matches exactly of mine. I think for this part of my post i used same internet source as yours😊

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Another interesting story regarding the Ramayan tradition handed down through the generations,

The Suprabhatam that is sung in Lord Vishnu's Temples in the morning - a ritual to wake Him up, is believed to have been sung by Sage Vishwamitra. I do not know the source of this information but I have heard many stories about it.

The princes of Ayodhya Ram and Lakshman accompanied Maharishi Viswamitra to protect his yagna. On the first morning of their journey sage Viswamitra wondered how to wake Lord Ram from his sleep. Since the mother is the one who wakes her son up every morning, he sings the Suprabhatam staring with His mother's name to wake him up.

The first stanza:

Kausalyasuprajarama! purva sandhya pravartate,
Uttistha! narasardula! kartavyam daivam ahnikam.

Born of Kaushalya, Rama, twilight appears in the East (or approaching - not sure).

Best among men, the divine rituals to be performed every day must be done. (Do wake up)

The whole song is an attempt to wake up the Lord. The next stanzas continue praising Lord Vishnu and ask him to wake up for the morning.

But I have a doubt regarding this - would Lord Ram well trained in all the shastras slept long enough for Viswamitra to sing the Suprabhatam or did Sage Viswamitra wake up extra early and wake up Sri Ram as well? (Just my doubt - no offence meant to anyone especialy Lord Ram)

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Thank you Rajnish ji and Mandodary ji. I was not sure of much of the details.

And Rajnish ji, you are right about the folk traditions. Many stories, literature and much more have been lost. It was the case of 'The winner writes the history - there were many kingdoms and they had waged war among themselves. The winning side had (most of the time) destroyed the creations of the losing side.

I agree with you that the ancient Tamil works do mention the 10 avtaars of Lord Vishnu and there are many references to the mythological stories in all the ancient Tamil works. Even in Kambaramayan there is a chapter dedicated to the Narashimha avtaar. Vibhishna tells the story of Prahalad and how Lord Vishnu came to his rescue as Lord Narasimha to kill one of their own ancestors (Hiranyakashipu). After hearing this story and Vibhishan's explanations and reasoning Ravan kicks him out of Lanka.

In the Kambaramayan, Ravan was cruel to Sita but was scared of her too. He was scared even to approach and touch her - hence, he tears the earth with the cottage and all and takes it away on his shoulders while kidnapping her. I agree that this version of Ramayan was written in a way that it reflects the Tamil cultures and ideals.

And regarding the Puranaanooru - it is not a version of Ramayan. It is a collection of 400 poems that speak of the bravery, courage and the achievements of the Tamilian Kings in battle.

There are others smaller versions and plays and songs written by various artists too. There is a Telugu Ramayan written by Pothana. Saint Thyagaraja has written many kirtanas on the scenes of Lord Ram's life. They are really beautiful.

Apart from the Thai and Indonesian Ramayan versions, there are Korean, Cambodian (and Japanes - not sure of this though) too. The Cambodian version is called Reamker. I had posted a story from this version in Page 3 of this same thread. I'll post it here anyway. It was regarding the origin of Maharadwaj's story. I had posted the information I had gathered and my opinions about it.

Regarding Maharadwaj - this is one of my completely wild guesses . . .

The Cambodian version of Ramayan - Reamker - says that Hanuman had a son who was part monkey and part fish from a princess (Yes, that is the way it is portrayed and I too was totally shocked when I read it first). The story is almost similar with the Indian versions but with . . . sort of unusual variations.

The story of Maharadwaj - Hanuman, a white monkey general (somtimes a monkey king), flies to Lanka and learns that Sita (Neang Seda in Cambodia), the wife of Ram (Phreah Ream) is held captive there. On his return, he gives orders to his soldiers to build a bridge that connects the mainland to the island. The monkey soldiers start the huge task - it is not easy to fill the belly of the sea with stones. But something strange was happening. Everytime a monkey had left a stone on the surface of the sea and returned with another one to place next to it, the original stone was gone. Hanuman and his soldiers were baffled. Hanuman dives into the sea to investigate (sometimes it is said that Hanuman went to the sea bed with some of his choicest soldiers). There he found mermaids carrying off the stones they had used for the bridge to the depths of the sea. Hanuman tried to catch the mermaids but it was not as easy as jumping from tree to tree. They were in the deep sea waters and the mermais were very very elusive. Hanuman spotted an extrememly beautiful mermaid among them all. He realised that this one was the leader and thought that if he could catch her he might be able to persuade her from doing this. This mermaid was indeed the leader of the group - a princess named Sovann Machha, the daughter of Ravan and a mermaid. Hanuman chased her, but she eluded his every attempt gracefully. But the two fell in love with each other. Hanuman realised that he was drawn to her beauty and charms whereas she was drawn to his strength and determination. Eventually, Sovann and her mermaids help Hanuman to complete the bridge. Hanuman left Sovann with a child - who was born later as part monkey and part fish (He had the body of a monkey and a fish's tail) and was brought up by Ravan and his family. He later fought against his father Hanuman in the war (I don't know what happens to him after that).

The reasons I think Maharadwaj's story comes from here is because he (Maharadwaj) was found in a fish's belly (some say its a crocodile) and then raised by Mahiravan (or Ahiravan) and appointed as the guardian of the gates of Patalpuri.

I stumbled upon this story when I was searching for the origin of the story of Maharadwaj. But could a Cambodian legend find its way into an age old Indian epic? Reamker claims to be a retelling of an Indian Epic Ramayan.

Another story common in South India on how and why Maharadwaj was born:

Lord Shiva, in the Himalayas, kept chanting a mantra continuously. The power of that mantra rippled all over the world and gave a surge of goodness to all. Devi Parvati asked Lord Shiva what mantra that was. Lord Shiva replied that it was the name of the next incarnation of Lord Vishnu - the name that will be the universal mantra till the end of days - RAM. He also told her that he will be taking active part in this avtaar. Devi Parvati asked longingly that she too be allowed to participate in the events. Lord Shiva refused blatantly saying that he will be a brahmachari in this avtaar as Hanuman and he cannot accept any women in that life. Devi Parvati silently swore that she won' t be left out and that she will come down to earth and bear him a son without spoiling his vow of celibacy. And hence she was the crocodile (or fish) who swallowed Hanuman's sweat drops and bore the son Maharadwaj.

That is all the information I have regarding this topic. I do not mean any offece by positng the first story. I am merely sharing the information I've read before.

I am trying to get my hands on the ancient Tamil books - the five great epics, the five smaller epics, the set of eight, ten and eighteen books that speaks of Tamil culture. I wish I can read them all . . .