Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 21

Originally posted by: chen2chic

Yes queen Kaikeyee was the youngest, but I guess since Bharat was elder to Lakshman & Shatrughan, people probably refer to the order of mothers as Kaushalya, Kaikeyee and Sumitra.

Bharat was not older to Lakshman. The way the payash was divided (sarg 16):

[quote="Sarg 16"]Dasharath went to his palace and told Kaushalyaa that that Prasaad was sent by Devtaa. It would give her a son. He gave half of it to Kaushalyaa, then "half of the remaining half" (1/4th) to Sumitraa, then the "half of the remaining half" (1/8th) to Kaikeyee. After giving giving some thoughts Raajaa gave the remaining part (1/8th part) to Sumitraa again. After some time the three queens became pregnant.

[/quote]

This pretty much establishes the sequences of the brothers (but not the relative power, since all these fractions of infinity are still infinite). First Rama, then Lakshman, then Bharat, then Shatrughan. Now, whether Bharat was born in the time frame between Lakshman & Shatrughan being born is implicit.

Supporting this assertion is Rama's reques to to Lakshman at his rajabhishek to become his Yuvraj, which Lakshman declined:

[quote="Sarg 128"]Raam said to Lakshman - "You are the eldest among your brothers, so help me to rule." When Lakshman did not accept the yuvraj status then He appointed Bharat as yuvraj[/quote]

Also, in Sarg 127, just before that, Bharat is mentioned as greeting Sita & Lakshman in the same verse. Since the only way he could greet Sita would be charan-sparsh, it's implicit that he did the same for Lakshman.

I haven't seen anything that describes the relative seniority of Kaikeyi vs Sumitra.

Originally posted by: chen2chic

@ Chandra - I guess you read the Bala kanda Sarga 34. Ananya referred toAyodhya Kand, Sarga 34.😉

Vibs had mentioned that as per Kamba Ramayanam, all the other wives of Dasharatha commit Sati. I dont think the number is mentioned though.

[quote="Sarg 34]Sarg 34 - Raam Consoles Dashrath

Raam asked Sumantra to tell him about His coming. Sumantra went inside quickly and saw Dashrath very sad, sometimes conscious and sometimes unconscious. Sumantra said to him - Your son Raam has donated all His wealth and now waiting at the gate. After bidding farewell to all His friends He wants to see you now. he is setting out to forest.

Raajaa Dashrath, who speaks truth, whose mind is virtuous, and who has his character deep like ocean said to Sumantra - "I want to see Him with all my wives here." So Sumantra called his wives. His 350 wives along with Kaushalyaa came there soon. Then Dashrath asked Sumantra to bring Raam there. Seeing his son coming Dashrath rose from his seat and ran to meet Him but fell down unconscious afflicted as he was with sorrow. All women cried, "Haa Raam, Haa Raam".
[/quote]

Incidentally, no mention of Sumitra above?😕 I know Kaikeyi wouldn't be invited there, but Sumitra?😕

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Ooops😳, thanks for pointing it out. Going through it, she is right!

[quote="Sarg 34]Sarg 34 - Raam Consoles Dashrath

Raam asked Sumantra to tell him about His coming. Sumantra went inside quickly and saw Dashrath very sad, sometimes conscious and sometimes unconscious. Sumantra said to him - Your son Raam has donated all His wealth and now waiting at the gate. After bidding farewell to all His friends He wants to see you now. he is setting out to forest.

Raajaa Dashrath, who speaks truth, whose mind is virtuous, and who has his character deep like ocean said to Sumantra - "I want to see Him with all my wives here." So Sumantra called his wives. His 350 wives along with Kaushalyaa came there soon. Then Dashrath asked Sumantra to bring Raam there. Seeing his son coming Dashrath rose from his seat and ran to meet Him but fell down unconscious afflicted as he was with sorrow. All women cried, "Haa Raam, Haa Raam".
[/quote]

Incidentally, no mention of Sumitra above?😕 I know Kaikeyi wouldn't be invited there, but Sumitra?😕

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Ooops😳, thanks for pointing it out. Going through it, she is right!

[quote="Sarg 34]Sarg 34 - Raam Consoles Dashrath

Raam asked Sumantra to tell him about His coming. Sumantra went inside quickly and saw Dashrath very sad, sometimes conscious and sometimes unconscious. Sumantra said to him - Your son Raam has donated all His wealth and now waiting at the gate. After bidding farewell to all His friends He wants to see you now. he is setting out to forest.

Raajaa Dashrath, who speaks truth, whose mind is virtuous, and who has his character deep like ocean said to Sumantra - "I want to see Him with all my wives here." So Sumantra called his wives. His 350 wives along with Kaushalyaa came there soon. Then Dashrath asked Sumantra to bring Raam there. Seeing his son coming Dashrath rose from his seat and ran to meet Him but fell down unconscious afflicted as he was with sorrow. All women cried, "Haa Raam, Haa Raam".
[/quote]

Incidentally, no mention of Sumitra above?😕 I know Kaikeyi wouldn't be invited there, but Sumitra?😕

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Bharat was not older to Lakshman. The way the payash was divided (sarg 16):

[quote="Sarg 16"]Dasharath went to his palace and told Kaushalyaa that that Prasaad was sent by Devtaa. It would give her a son. He gave half of it to Kaushalyaa, then "half of the remaining half" (1/4th) to Sumitraa, then the "half of the remaining half" (1/8th) to Kaikeyee. After giving giving some thoughts Raajaa gave the remaining part (1/8th part) to Sumitraa again. After some time the three queens became pregnant.

[/quote]

This pretty much establishes the sequences of the brothers (but not the relative power, since all these fractions of infinity are still infinite). First Rama, then Lakshman, then Bharat, then Shatrughan. Now, whether Bharat was born in the time frame between Lakshman & Shatrughan being born is implicit.

Supporting this assertion is Rama's reques to to Lakshman at his rajabhishek to become his Yuvraj, which Lakshman declined:

[quote="Sarg 128"]Raam said to Lakshman - "You are the eldest among your brothers, so help me to rule." When Lakshman did not accept the yuvraj status then He appointed Bharat as yuvraj[/quote]

Also, in Sarg 127, just before that, Bharat is mentioned as greeting Sita & Lakshman in the same verse. Since the only way he could greet Sita would be charan-sparsh, it's implicit that he did the same for Lakshman.

I haven't seen anything that describes the relative seniority of Kaikeyi vs Sumitra.

Originally posted by: ananyacool

I think Kaikeyi was present there itself , no question of inviting her there because the very next chapter (35) of Ayodhya Kand 😉 Sumantra is berating Kaikeyi and he asks her to take her words back...and again another minister Siddhartha tries to persuade Kaikeyi on the exile thing in chapter 36. In chapter 37 Kaikeyi offers tree bark clothes to Ram-Sita n Lakshman.

So Kaikeyi surely must have been present in all these proceedings.

Regarding seniority between Bharat and Lakshman , its is given that Bharat was born the next day of Ram and later that day maybe evening Lakshman and Shatrughna were born , refer Balkand.

Payasa division might have been done also according to the seniority of queens.....i think.

Regarding

Originally posted by: rajnish_here

😲 350 wives discussion is still going on, i think i missed few post😆
anyways when carefully going through text i think total number of wives are 353 or 352 or 351, not exactly 350 because kaikey is surly not included in 350 count, but we have to read carefully to know whether sumitra and kausalya is included in 350 count or not😕

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Vibs and chandraketu:

Refer [1-18-15] of Valmiki Ramayan

Bharat was older than Lakshman according to it. Also read author's note regarding the same.

Originally posted by: "1:18:12-15"

kausalyaa shushubhe tena putreNa amita tejasaa |
yathaa vareNa devaanaam aditiH vajra paaNinaa || 1-18-12

12. Kausalya; a+mita tejasaa= one with unlimited resplendence; tena putreNa= by that, son; devaanaam vareNa= among gods, the best one; vajra paaNinaa= by Thunderbolt, in hand [wielder - Indra]; adithiH yathaa shushubhe= Lady Aditi, as with, shone forth.

Kausalya shone forth with such a son whose resplendence is unlimited, as with lady Aditi who once stood out with her son Indra, the best one among gods. [1-18-12]

Verse Locator

bharato naama kaikeyyaam jaj~ne satya paraakramaH |
saakSaat viSNoH caturtha bhaagaH sarvaiH samudito guNaiH || 1-18-13

13. satya paraakramaH= truthfulness, as his valour; saakshaat viSNoH= manifest, Vishnu's; chatur bhaagaH= fourth, component; sarvaiH guNaiH samuditaH= with all, merits, embodied with ; Bharata; naama kaikeyyaam jaj~ne= named, to Queen Kaikeyi, born to.

Queen Kaikeyi gave birth to Bharata, one embodied with all merits, and whose truthfulness itself is his valour and who is fourth component of manifest Vishnu, namely Rama. [1-18-13]

The fraction indicated here like 'one fourth of Vishnu' etc may be reckoned as the share of the dessert consumed by the queens, but not as a cleaved portion of Vishnu as he is an indivisible entity. Here it is half of one-fourth i.e., one-eighth of dessert given to Kaikeyi.

Verse Locator

atha laxmaNa shatrughnau sumitraa ajanayat sutau |
viirau sarva astra kushalau viSNoH ardha samanvitau | 1-18-14

14. atha= then; Queen Sumitra; viiraau= valiant ones; sarva astra kushalau= all, weaponry, experts; viSNoH= Vishnu's; artha= essence, epitome; samanvitou= those that are embodied with; Lakshmana; Shatrughna; sutou ajanayat= to sons, gave birth.

Queen Sumitra then gave birth to two sons who are the embodied epitomes of Vishnu, namely Lakshmana, and Shatrughna, who are valiant ones and experts in all kinds of weaponry. [1-18-14]

Verse Locator

puShye jaataH tu bharato mIna lagne prasanna dhIH |
saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15

15. prasanna dhiiH= level, headed one – guileless, fair-minded; Bharata; pushye miina lagne jaataH= under Pushyami star, in Pisces [of Zodiac,] born; saumitrii= sons of Sumitra [Lakshmana, Shatrughna]; saarpe kuliire= under star presided by serpent [aaSreSa,] in Cancer [of Zodiac]; abhyudite ravau= when rising, of Sun- when sun is rising, i.e., on next day of Rama's birth, tenth of Chaitra; jaatau= they are born.

The fair-minded Bharata is born under Pisces where puSyami is the star of day, and the sons of Sumitra, namely Lakshmana and Shatrughna are born under Cancer, where aaSreSa is the star of the day and when sun is rising. [1-18-15]

Rama is born on the ninth day of Chaitra month, and Bharata is born in the earlier part of next day the tenth of Chaitra, earlier to his younger brothers, and then Lakshmana and Shatrughna are born on the later part of the day.

'Pushya is the name of a month; but here it means the eighth mansion. The ninth is called Aslesh, or the snake. It is evident from this that Bharata, though his birth is mentioned before that of the twins, was the youngest of the four brothers and Rama's junior by eleven months' Schlegel. The eleven-month gap between Rama and Bharata is unapparent in the words of verse. This may be from some other version of Ramayana.
[/quote]

The author notes in blue are obviously his/her interpretations, rather than Valmiki's. Particularly the observation about Bharat being the youngest, in face of the evidence. But that still leaves open the question of why Rama himself describes Lakshman as the #2, as in 6-128. I tried the site you provided for more details, but it is still a work in progress, and only has until Sarg 88.