Keechak was Suta - Page 3

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

No, a suta was just a sub-caste of kshatriya, not a result of a pratiloma marriage. It was a lower level sub-caste - usually drove chariots. So they could be killed in a war, but they weren't first in line to inherit a kingdom

Wasn't Pratiloma marriage ie hypergamy forbidden by the scriptures btw? Like a man can't marry a woman of an upper caste? I don't have too much knowledge on sociology but I remember reading this

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Wasn't Pratiloma marriage ie hypergamy forbidden by the scriptures btw? Like a man can't marry a woman of an upper caste? I don't have too much knowledge on sociology but I remember reading this

Yes that would have been the reason why Sutas were looked down

Maybe that would have been that case that Sutas wouldn't get partners from Kshatriyas/Brahmins so they started intermarrying, and by the time of Mahabharata they became a separate subcaste

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes that would have been the reason why Sutas were looked down

Maybe that would have been that case that Sutas wouldn't get partners from Kshatriyas/Brahmins so they started intermarrying, and by the time of Mahabharata they became a separate subcaste

Exactly, this was my guess too hence I raised this question. If it is not a hybrid caste then it doesn't make sense to keep them out of knowledge of celestial weapons etc.

If we consider Karna, Drona does state that he isn't Kshatriya or Brahmin, most probably pratiloma comes into play here, otherwise why will Sutas be looked down upon if they are a hybrid of the two upper castes unless they're doing something which is immoral to society.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Exactly, this was my guess too hence I raised this question. If it is not a hybrid caste then it doesn't make sense to keep them out of knowledge of celestial weapons etc.

If we consider Karna, Drona does state that he isn't Kshatriya or Brahmin, most probably pratiloma comes into play here, otherwise why will Sutas be looked down upon if they are a hybrid of the two upper castes unless they're doing something which is immoral to society.

Right they started as mixed breed kids in Vedic era (Satyug) but by intermarrying they had become a separate sub caste by the time of Mahabharata (Dwapar Yug)

These were not treated badly like Vaishyas or Shudras, were actually respected, but those who weren't too officials or into royality, did sometimes face discriminations in elite circles

Karna definitely received high education but the top notch wasn't imparted to him

Whatever Karna faced was a consequence of his behavior and Karma. He went to Drona asking for Brahmashira to defeat Arjuna. Drona refused stating he didn't deserve it on account of Varna. If he said you don't deserve it on account of behavior would Duryodhan let it be.

By the way Yudhishtir and Duryodhan were also not given that weapon. They were Kshatriya.

One more thing,

Parshuram himself was inter caste progeny.

His grandfather Richika was a Brahman but grandmother Satyavati was Kshatriya princess born to King Gadhi. His father Jamadagni was Brahmin but mother Renuka was again a Kshatriya princess.

Vyasa the one who had all the knowledge of Vedas in the world father was Brahmin Parasara and mother Satyavati adopted daughter of a Nishada varna fisherman.

Just like Karna was adopted son of much higher varna suta.

Queen Kaikeyi of Dasrath was a suta. As entire Kaikeya Royal family belonged to Suta varna. So Bharat is Sutaputra from mother's side.

The other Bharat of Chandravansh in whose name we have Mahabharata was son of Shakuntala adopted daughter of Brahmin Rishi kanva and married to Kshatriya Santanu. He was also suta.

Entire Yaduvansh is Suta because Yadu was son of Devyani a Brahmin Shukracharya's daughter and Yayati a Kshatriya King.

One more Bhishma/Devrat, was born to Santanu a Kshatriya and Ganga always addressed as Jahnavi by Santanu as she was adopted as daughter by Brahmin Rishi Jahnu, in any case daughter of Brahma, the first brahmin

So Bhishma was a suta too

Caste as problem came much later,, not during Mahabharata. During that yUga intermarriage was very common

^^^^ thanks for the insights

But Duryodhan scolds the servant calling him foolish Suta when he wasn't able to bring Draupadi into the dice hall

Aside the examples you gave are from Satyug or TretaYug, by then such marriages undoubtedly were common, things might have changed by the end of Dwapar Yug

Vyasji is a different case, it isn't the result of marriage but a relation solely to get a son

Durydodhan, Dhritrashtra and Karna himself call Vidura as Kshatta by his varna.

If the servant sent to fetch Draupadi had been a Kshatriya and had failed to bring her, Duryodhan would have yelled at him inspite of being Kshatriya. There were Kshatriya servants too.

Like I mentioned Bhishma himself was a suta.

The respect a person recieved depended upon his own behavior and the person addressing him

Foul mouthed Karna disrespected everyone and he got that back in kind. During the Virat war he is arrogant and abusive with Drona so much that Ashwatthama rushes with anger at him, and Duryodhan had to intervene. Drona was a Brahmin.

Please don't consider Duryodhan's or Karna's behavior as benchmark for how people were treated in that era.

No one would drag and disrobe their sister in-law for a throne in that era.

Suta Bhishma and Kshatta Vidur were respected by everyone.

They lived at the same time as Karna.

Ok thanks. I asked because Duryodhan mentioned the caste Name. He could have simply called foolish servant why call him foolish suta

I already said that probably low class Sutas who were not into royality could have been slightly discriminated, no proof just a thought

How come Bheeshm was a Suta? Ganga isn't Brahmin

When Brahmin Rishi Kashyap and his Brahmin wife's youngest son Vamana(vishnu avatar). Takes the three steps donated to him by king Bali. He takes the first step on pataal second on the heaven, while doing so his toe pierces a hole in the heavens and outflows Ganga.

Hence she is called as Vishnupadi. So her origin or birth happens by a Brahmin Vamana. Hence by birth a Brahmin

When she reaches earth at the request of Bhagirath, after being released from the Jata of Shiva, she is hurling in a spate and destroys the ashram of Brahmin Rishi Jahnu, who in anger then drinks her up. Other Rishis devas Bhagirath then intervene, and Rishi Jahnu then releases her again from his body through his ear.

Hence she is called as Jahnavi, so her adoption on earth or rebirth on earth is through Brahmin Rishi Jahnu. Therefore she by re birth or adoption as well she is a Brahmin.

Santanu does not call her Ganga he calls her Jahnavi (daughter of Jahnu)

People in that era were generally addressed by their, father or mother or by Varna name.

Bhishma was called Gangeya, Karna was called Radheya or sometimes Suta.

Yudhishtir was also called Kounteya, Pandavas etc.

Usually it depended on how famous your parents were.

If you are son of Ganga. Then everyone would address you as her son. Because he is son of the famous Ganga.

Similarly Yudhishtir and his brothers were son of the famous Pandu who had conquered several kingdoms hence mostly addressed as Pandavas.

Have you noticed though Duryodhan is son of Dhritrashtra he is mostly addressed as Bharata or Kourava. Because Dhritrashtra had never done anything to make him famous enough for his sons to be addressed as his.

The priest of Drupad who goes with the first peace message is addressed as son of Brahmans as his father was nobody worthy enough of mention

Same with Karna. If his adopted father was someone famous then he would rather be addressed as son of that famous man instead of son of suta.

As far as poor are concerned, they were treated badly for their poverty not for their varna

Because they were helpless.

You can notice the difference between Duryodhan and Draupadi from this itself.

The way Duryodhan treats his servants by yelling at them, and the way Draupadi would eat every day only after she had fed even handicapped beggars who came to her door

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Durydodhan, Dhritrashtra and Karna himself call Vidura as Kshatta by his varna.

If the servant sent to fetch Draupadi had been a Kshatriya and had failed to bring her, Duryodhan would have yelled at him inspite of being Kshatriya. There were Kshatriya servants too.

Like I mentioned Bhishma himself was a suta.

The respect a person recieved depended upon his own behavior and the person addressing him

Foul mouthed Karna disrespected everyone and he got that back in kind. During the Virat war he is arrogant and abusive with Drona so much that Ashwatthama rushes with anger at him, and Duryodhan had to intervene. Drona was a Brahmin.

Please don't consider Duryodhan's or Karna's behavior as benchmark for how people were treated in that era.

No one would drag and disrobe their sister in-law for a throne in that era.

Suta Bhishma and Kshatta Vidur were respected by everyone.

They lived at the same time as Karna.

But if caste was just based on occupation in Dwapar Yuga, then all examples you stated stand redundant because these are all examples of caste by birth. My point is caste was definitely a problem at least during the ending the of Dwapar Yuga. The fact that your birth determines what job you can do itself is discrimination. I am not speaking in terms of Karna, but just as general insight on caste. Karna's discrimination was because he was non royal, not because of caste which is a fact clear by now I guess.

However, I do not understand why Drona stated his varna and refused him Brahmastra. His reasoning I believe was not right.

Also, if I am not wrong, Bhishma is referred to as a Kshatriya through out the text. Ganga was a goddess, no? His case isn't clear to me. Rest I understand.