Keechak was Suta - Page 5

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Ashwatthama was Brahmin, but he became a King.

Vishwamitra was King he became a teacher.

Didn't Krishna become a charioteer by choice to Arjuna.

Wasn't Kaikeyi a queen charioteer for Dasrath in Devasur war. It was her skills as charioteer that got her the two boons from Dasrath.

Charioteer on a regular day may be just a servant but charioteer on battlefield used to save the King's lives. How many times did Krishna do that.

I repeat my previous statement here, Karna was not insulted for being a Suta because there were other Suta and even lower caste than Suta Vidur (a kshatra) who were never insulted.

Karna was insulted for being Karna. If he had been a Kshatriya he would still have been insulted.

I'll give you the example of the citation you have given. For what Kripacharya says

Sons of kings never fight with men of inglorious lineage.'

Reference is specifix to Karna's inglorious lineage here. His biological father was unknown and adoptive father a nobody. His adoptive father's lineage from Anga had done nothing worth talking about and were Infact conquered by Pandu

Kripa compares him to Arjun and says Arjun is son of Pandu, youngest son of Kunti (daughter of king Kuntibhoj and sister to Vasudeva) and belongs to the famous family of Kurus.

Fact of the matter is Adhirat did not do anything famous in life neither did his forefathers for Karna to call his family glorious.

After that Bhima ridicules him as son of charioteer, calls him undeserving of throne just as a dog undeserving of the homa butter.

Again reference is to Adhirath who himself has never ruled any kingdom and his son Karna too just obtained a kingdom in charity. A kingdom that Bhim'S father had conquered. And he dare to threaten to kill his younger brother in public.

There is absolutely no single verse in the entire epic, where any other Suta or a lower caste person ever gets insulted by others

It is Karna Or Duryodhan who insult people or get insulted. And that is totally on them, not anything to do with their Varna. The insults are specifically for Karna. He would have been insulted even if he had been adopted by an unknown Kshatriya King, unless that King was someone famous already

I understand the reasons why Karna was insulted. But I do not understand why his father's profession and varna is being referred to.

I am a bad person, I don't think to insult me because of that someone needs to bring in my father being a journalist or my caste be it Brahmin or Kayastha or Shudra whatever.

Why are the reasons given for insulting Karna or denying him knowledge his VARNA?

Re: Ashwathhama was an exceptional case. We all know the story of Drona and Drupad. It wasn't a natural choice of profession and also, monarchy is hierarchical or via coup de'tat. Ashwathhama was the latter.

Krishna chose to be a charioteer because he wasn't picking up weapons. Infact, it's an important move as this profession was looked down upon by society. It definitely was, Karna is repeatedly ridiculed as a "charioteer's son". Nobody pointed out his evil nature to insult him, it was always " charioteer's son". My question is, what is the need to refer to a Varna or profession if no hierarchy existed.

Drona clearly said -

Karna. one day approached Drona in private and said these words unto him, 'I desire to be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, with all its mantras and the power of withdrawing it, for I desire to fight Arjuna. Without doubt, the affection thou bearest to every one of thy pupils is equal to what thou bearest to thy own son. I pray that all the masters of the science of weapons may, through thy grace, regard me as one accomplished in weapons!' Thus addressed by him, Drona, from partiality for Phalguna, as also from his knowledge of the wickedness of Karna, said, 'None but a Brahmana, who has duly observed all vows, should be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, or a Kshatriya that has practised austere penances, and no other.'

Drona was a teacher, he didn't give this weapon to Duryodhan or Yudhishthir as you yourself stated, because they weren't eligible for it. He could have simply stated that Karna was not eligible enough for it yet or he could have said he isn't skilled enough. I won't mind even if he insulted Karna (he deserved it). Why was this reason out of all stated, why was caste dragged if it was not at all a reason.

Unless there's superiority involved, it's not possible.

In addition: Why is it necessary for my FATHER to be famous for me to be able to fight someone is beyond me if society was so accepting and welcoming. I absolutely detest Karna, I loathe him with all my heart but it's true that this is not the correct reason to deny someone of a chance. It's like saying your father didn't do anything great so you can't work.

This is simply Bollywood nepotism. Amitabh Bachchan's son gets to be someone but you don't get same roles as him because your father is not Amitabh Bachchan. Makes zero sense to me. This is still wrong, may not be caste discrimination but it is wrong.

That is how insults are. People use insults to humiliate the other person.

Most popular insult in English is MF... Why do. People drag someone's mother when they should only talk about that person.

That is how it is. And It was then too.

Coming to Adhirat. Yes as a profession charioteer would be equal to today's driver in peace time. So yes compared to a prince or a warrior a driver was a lowly position. But Adhirath chose that profession. Mahabharata in vanaparva clearly states that.

He was looked down upon that when there was a choice for him to be a warrior he chose to be driver and be at Hastinapur whose king had actually defeated his father and uncles

To be more clear here, Suta were not disrespected, a driver was. There were Kshatriya drivers too who were not disrespected and there were suta too who had other professions and were not disrespected.

On top of it Karna instead of challenging all Kurus to combat and take away Anga as victory, accepts it as charity.

Why would he be respected by anybody.

Adhirath had done nothing great in life as a prince other than be a driver and Karna inspite of all the boasting he does for his martial skills accepts kingdom as charity

Ashwatthama at least got it as Gurudakshnia, which was earned by his father..

If I translate Bhim'S insult in local Hindi

It was more like mamooli driver ki aulad jise bhik Mein Rajya Mila, teri itni aukaat Nahin, ki mera bhai tujhse lade. Tu driver banne ke layak hai, jaake steering sambhal

It was an insult to Karna just like everywhere else but not to his caste.

There was no discrimination with Karna there.

What Adhirath was expected to do was to fight Pandu and get back his kingdom, not come and work as driver in Hastinapur.

Karna was also expected to challenge not just Arjun but kouravas and pandavas in Ranbhoomi not Rangabhoomi and take back Anga with his might.

There is no nepotism here. Kings could be by birth or they had to earn it. Adhirath and Karna chose to be part of dirty politics to get Anga and that was what Bhima was calling out

Originally posted by: Chiillii

That is how insults are. People use insults to humiliate the other person.

Most popular insult in English is MF... Why do. People drag someone's mother when they should only talk about that person.

That is how it is. And It was then too.

Coming to Adhirat. Yes as a profession charioteer would be equal to today's driver in peace time. So yes compared to a prince or a warrior a driver was a lowly position. But Adhirath chose that profession. Mahabharata in vanaparva clearly states that.

He was looked down upon that when there was a choice for him to be a warrior he chose to be driver and be at Hastinapur whose king had actually defeated his father and uncles

To be more clear here, Suta were not disrespected, a driver was. There were Kshatriya drivers too who were not disrespected and there were suta too who had other professions and were not disrespected.

On top of it Karna instead of challenging all Kurus to combat and take away Anga as victory, accepts it as charity.

Why would he be respected by anybody.

Adhirath had done nothing great in life as a prince other than be a driver and Karna inspite of all the boasting he does for his martial skills accepts kingdom as charity

Ashwatthama at least got it as Gurudakshnia, which was earned by his father..

If I translate Bhim'S insult in local Hindi

It was more like mamooli driver ki aulad jise bhik Mein Rajya Mila, teri itni aukaat Nahin, ki mera bhai tujhse lade. Tu driver banne ke layak hai, jaake steering sambhal

It was an insult to Karna just like everywhere else but not to his caste.

There was no discrimination with Karna there.

What Adhirath was expected to do was to fight Pandu and get back his kingdom, not come and work as driver in Hastinapur.

Karna was also expected to challenge not just Arjun but kouravas and pandavas in Ranbhoomi not Rangabhoomi and take back Anga with his might.

There is no nepotism here. Kings could be by birth or they had to earn it. Adhirath and Karna chose to be part of dirty politics to get Anga and that was what Bhima was calling out

Thank you! Somehow, no one remembers Anga belonged to Adhirath and family, then went to Hastinapuri. Getting the very same kingdom back explains Adhirath's Bollywood melodrama after.

At that point, what was Bheema expected to do? I mean, Karna had previously been involved in Kaurava schemes, and here he was, trying to kill Arjuna. IMO, the insult was quite mild. I'd be calling Karna more choice names.