Keechak was Suta - Page 2

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Mid way. They are above Vaishyas but below Kshatriyas

As the concept of origin, Brahmins originated from the heat of Brahma, Kshtriyas by His arms, Vaishyas by His waist and Shudras by His feet. Once all the four castes had been assigned their duties the world was running, but it was observed that there is no one to do accounting kind of job, hence from His Kaya(or chest) Chitragupta ji came out (the one who accompanies Yamraj) for this duty. Kayasthas are all his descandant, since he had come out of Kaya hence the word Kayastha

I see! Thank you so much for clarifying!

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Sutas held important positions everywhere

Suta Ugrashrawa is the one who has narrated Rishi Shaunak and his disciples (and thereby indirectly to us) the complete Mahabharata. He was respected a lot by Rishis when he entered the Ashram, do you really think someone who is respected by Sages could belong to a low or discriminated caste?? In fact not just him any Katha in Poojas start with the statement"Suta ji kehte Hain" so it were always them who propagated the Dharma n rituals through Kathas

They were into royal family. In fact Yadu was himself the son of a Brahmin mom and Kshatriya dad thereby practically the entire Yaduvanshis or Yadavs were Sutas (they were considered slightly below Suryavanshis or Chandravanshis but were never an outcaste). In fact someone here said that most considered to be the most pious Kshtriyas, Suryavanshis themselves were Suta. Not sure about the last point though

Keechak and Sudeshna we already discussed

Sanjay was a minor minister in Dhritrashtra's court

So know Sutas were not discriminated the way the shows portray. They might have been looked upon slightly down by the purer bloods but caste discrimination is definitely the no no

The only reason (if at all) Karna might have faced discrimination was that his father Adhirath was a charioteer/saarthi by profession. Just think of it not many owner's children would be happy with the idea of having their driver's son at par with them

Makes sense. However in Shanti Parva, Drona does tell Karna that he will not teach Karna the Brahmastra because he isn't a Brahmin or Kshatriya. I never understood this. (Of course I do believe the main reason was Karna wanted such a dangerous weapon to kill ONE person and satisfy personal rivalry). However Drona's stated reason can't be discarded.

I'll post the citation if I can

Sut is hybrid caste means when kshatriya father married to brrahmin mother their children caste are called sut

Like karn ' s foster father 's mother will be bhrahmin and father will be kshatriya so karn :s foster father caste is sut

In same way keechak father's father will be kshatriya and mother will be bhrahmin and hence keechak ' s father caste was also sut

Suta is not low caste. It is just mixture of two caste that is kshatriya and bhrahmin

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Makes sense. However in Shanti Parva, Drona does tell Karna that he will not teach Karna the Brahmastra because he isn't a Brahmin or Kshatriya. I never understood this. (Of course I do believe the main reason was Karna wanted such a dangerous weapon to kill ONE person and satisfy personal rivalry). However Drona's stated reason can't be discarded.

I'll post the citation if I can

Drona was slightly biased towards Arjun not because of some other way reason but because Arjun was great. Every teacher wants that the elite education of theirs should only be imparted to the best student

However I agree to your point, maybe they did limit the top most education from the Sutas especially those who weren't from the royal family.

Aside even if not for pure discrimination, they did use the word Suta as a slang to humiliate (something like although in the cities of today SC do not face discrimination, but their caste names are used as slang by many)

During Dyut Sabha for example, when the servant sent by Duryodhan wasn't able to bring Draupadi to the hall, he does scold him and make a statement like nothing better could have been expected by this foolish Suta and hence Dusshashan needs to go (I so want to see Karna's face when Duryodhan made this statement,)

Sutas were definitely not a high caste they definitely did face some discrimination in the elite levels but I meant the kind of discrimination they show in TV serials is not true. They were considered second grade in top league (which isn't a bad thing if you think. Like someone who gets Agribusiness Couse in IIM Ahmedabad, they would be looked down by the IIM Ahmedabad business management students in the IIM A campus, but to overall Indian population they still are elite) but to the general population they were still highly respected.

The problem with Karna --

1) He was not a prince or the son of high ranked official but of a mere charioteer

2) His life revolved around the top most elite in his society

Both these facts meant he didn't receive the kind of treatment the kids around him got despite being better than 90% of them

Yeah in all probability Karna faced CLASS discrimination and not CASTE. He just wasn't as privileged as the royal princes.

Originally posted by: CaptainSpark

Suta, AFAIK is a hybrid caste between a Brahmin and a Kshatriya. The cast Kshatriya has many subcastes, Suta was one of them

For eg, today we have the caste "Kayastha" which is a subcaste of Kshatriya. So technically, royalty doesn't determine the caste.

No, a suta was just a sub-caste of kshatriya, not a result of a pratiloma marriage. It was a lower level sub-caste - usually drove chariots. So they could be killed in a war, but they weren't first in line to inherit a kingdom

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Both him and Queen Sudeshna were Sutas.

Also, Keechak had 101 brothers, who were just as powerful as him. So Matsya was quite a powerful kingdom, and w/ his sister as the queen, they had a de-facto hold on the royal family.

Too bad the family had no survivors in the war

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

No, a suta was just a sub-caste of kshatriya, not a result of a pratiloma marriage. It was a lower level sub-caste - usually drove chariots. So they could be killed in a war, but they weren't first in line to inherit a kingdom

Manusmriti does state that the hybrid of Kshatriya and Brahmin are Sutas.

I think this started as a result of Pratilom marriage during the Vedic (Manusmriti) era, but later they started intermarrying and by the time of Mahabharata it was a full fledged subcaste.

Sutas were not only into chariot driving but also Katha vachaks, rulers top ranked officials etc

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm

From a Kshatriya by the daughter of a Brahmana is born (a son called) according to his caste (gati) a Suta;

Suta were story tellers (Ugrasrava), charioteers (Adhirath), ministers (Sanjaya), generals (Keechak), queens (Sudeshna - queen of Matsya), kings (Anga was ruled by Suta descended from Suta king Vijaya). They were free to choose an occupation that interested them.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm

From a Kshatriya by the daughter of a Brahmana is born (a son called) according to his caste (gati) a Suta;

Suta were story tellers (Ugrasrava), charioteers (Adhirath), ministers (Sanjaya), generals (Keechak), queens (Sudeshna - queen of Matsya), kings (Anga was ruled by Suta descended from Suta king Vijaya). They were free to choose an occupation that interested them.

That's exactly what I said at the beginning. Suta definitely has this origin at the time of Manusmriti.

But there is a huge time gap between Manusmriti and Mahabharata. Many things changed

It is quite possible that later the Sutas started intermarrying and by the time of Mahabharata they had become a subcaste in themselves