death of tragic hero karna - Page 9

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amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#81

Originally posted by: adoremevirgo



@bold...i really dont mind at all if ppl express opposing opinions to mine...if that wud hv been the case i wud hv kept my feelings to myself and not shared it in an open forum...here i cannot expect unanimous votes...like i hv the right to say my view so do others...if karna haters joined this thread and started defending their views i wud hv been quite glad...since that wud be discussion on the topic for which i opened this thread...also opposing views help me broaden my perspective so i welcome them...

but wat bothered me is that i hv been criticized for judging krishna...how can i ever do that in my wildest dreams...and also i hv been criticized for supporting karna's insulting draupadi...being a woman myself how can i ever do that...i dont know y these ideas came up in anyone's mind wen all i said that i like karna and he is a tragic hero...wen did i say pandavas r evil and draupadi deserved wat she got (it is another thing that in this thread karmaphal has been mentioned many times...does that mean draupadi was disrobed because it was her karmaphal...but then that is not my topic here but others hv started this in this thread)...




U see, like i said since some of us have had really bad experience in other sites, n hence we have kind of built these notions that Karna fan will more likely be a Draupadi hater or an Arjun hater, etc.
I no that this idea is not true since there r many people in this forum who r fans of both Karna n Draupadi or even respect both Karna n Arjun...

However, its like just that seeing the reactions of some people in this forum as well, in the past...
we have grown these ideas in our heads...Its nothing more than that...

By the way, if u havent read the epic yet then u might wanna start with KMG which is found online.
Star Plus has completely distorted the story, n the Pandavas, Kunti n Karna have been glorified n Duryodhan n Shakuni have been blackened more than they were.
So, if u read the epic, the context will be more clear to u. 😊
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Posted: 11 years ago
#82

Originally posted by: divyasn

People here say Pandavas did rependence of their staking Droupadi and their inaction during their 13 year exile ...

But yudishtir almost at the end of exile asks Droupadi to bear with Keechak's molestation ...

So that means no repentence , no guilt nothing from yudishtitr side ... and he is asking Droupadi to go through second round of VH for his own selfish means .. his first inaction was for his individual dharma , second inaction was to guard their anonymity ...

When Droupadi was going through all these troubles , Arjun was enjoying his good time with Uthara and co ...
Actually Arjun wanted to marry Uthara at the end of exile , it is due to Krishna's intervention that she ends up marrying Abhimanyu ...

Only Bhima has been a dutiful and responsible husband to Droupadi...


1) Yudhisthir never told Draupadi to bear with her molestation. He told her to try and evade Keechak for a little bit more time because the 13th year was almost over, and if they all tried to save Draupadi, they would be found out and have to go through another 13 year vanvaas. I can understand Yudhisthir's dilemma here. On the one hand he did care for his wife's safety, but on the other hand he and the other Pandavas badly wanted the exile to be over so that they could reclaim what was theirs. Draupadi herself wanted that. Yudhisthir never told Draupadi to submit herself to Keechak. He asked her to evade him for a few days more, because that's all they had before vanvaas was over, and then all five Pandavas would punish him together. Yudhisthir indicated to Draupadi that if she was just a bit more patient, then he and the other Pandavas would avenge her insult. In this incident, I do not fault Yudhisthir as I can understand his dilemma. He was only looking out for their best interest, for he was intelligent and knew that the Kauravas would be upon them in an instant if they caused a scene there. No where in the epic did he tell Draupadi to submit to Keechak's molestation. He told her to return to Queen Sudeshna's apartments and be patient.

Vaisampayana continued, 'And while the courtiers, having beheld Krishna (under such circumstances), were applauding her thus, Yudhishthira's forehead, from ire, became covered with sweat. And that bull of the Kuru race then addressed that princess, his beloved spouse, saying, 'Stay not here, O Sairindhri; but retire to the apartments of Sudeshna. The wives of heroes bear affliction for the sake of their husbands, and undergoing toil in ministering unto their lords, they at last attain to region where their husbands may go. Thy Gandharva husbands, effulgent as the sun, do not, I imagine, consider this as an occasion for manifesting their wrath, inasmuch as they do not rush to thy aid. OSairindhri, thou art ignorant of the timeliness of things, and it is for this that thou weepest as an actress, besides interrupting the play of dice in Matsya's court. Retire, O Sairindhri; the Gandharvas will do what is agreeable to thee. And they will surely display thy woe and take the life of him that hath wronged thee.'


2) Umm, Arjuna never wanted to marry Uttara. Where did you read this? When Virata offered Uttara in marriage to Arjuna, Arjuna refused her and told the King that he always viewed Uttara as a daughter, and that she'd make a more suitable wife for his son Abhimanyu. Krishna did not interfere in any part of Virata parva.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Then the high-souled Virata, delighted greatly, approached king Yudhishthira and made an alliance with him, and offered him his whole kingdom together with the sceptre and treasury and metropolis. And addressing all the Pandavas, and especially Dhananjaya, the mighty king of the Matsyas repeatedly said, 'By good luck it is that I see you.' And having again and again embraced Yudhishthira and Bhima and the sons of Madri, and smelt their heads, Virata, that owner of a large army, was not satiated with gazing at them. And being highly pleased, he said unto king Yudhishthira, 'By good luck it is that I see you safe from woods. By good luck it is that ye have accomplished with difficulty the period of exile, undiscovered by those wicked wights. I make over my entire kingdom to the sons of Pritha, and what else I have. Let the sons of Pandu accept these without the slightest hesitation. And let Dhananjaya, called also Savyasachin, accept the hand of Uttara: for that best of men is fit to be her lord.' Thus addressed, king Yudhishthira the just cast a look upon Dhananjaya, the son of Pritha. And looked at by his brother, Arjuna said unto the Matsya king, 'O monarch, I accept thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. And alliance of this kind between the Matsya and the Bharatas is, indeed, desirable.'"

"Virata said, 'Why, O best among the Pandavas, dost thou not wish to accept as wife this my daughter that I bestow upon thee?'

"Arjuna said, 'Residing in thy inner apartments, I had occasion always to behold thy daughter, and she too, alone or in company trusted me as her father. Well-versed in singing and dancing, I was liked and regarded by her, and, indeed, thy daughter always regardeth me as her protector. O king, I lived for one whole year with her though she had attained the age of puberty. Under these circumstances, thyself or other men may not without reason, entertain suspicions against her or me. Therefore, O king, myself who am pure, and have my senses under control, beg to thee, O monarch, thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. Thus do I attest her purity. There is no difference between a daughter-in-law and a daughter, as also between a son and son's own-self. By adopting this course, therefore, her purity will be proved. I am afraid of slanderous and false accusations. I accept, therefore, O king, thy daughter Uttara as my daughter-in-law. Surpassing all in

p. 127

knowledge of weapons, resembling a celestial youth in beauty, my son, the mighty-armed Abhimanyu is the favourite nephew of Vasudeva, the wielder of the discus. He, O king, is fit to be thy son-in-law and the husband of thy daughter.'

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04072.htm

riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#83
@RamKiJanaki - Just wanted to reply to your posts in this thread for one last time to clear some misconception. If some people question logic or try to analyse the scriptures themselves in a way they can comprehend doesnt really mean that they dont believe in spiritual part of it. I do consider this as religious text and TM very well indicates that how her words are interpreted as being questioning Lord Krishna while she had no such intention. What we do try to see is human side of it more does that mean I am a non-believer? No I am not. I dont think I need to prove anyone for that matter my choices of belief. or extent of my spiritual understandings. Similar case with those who have some other logics and beliefs as per their understanding of that text. No I dont see this as fiction but I do see this war as historical event which had spiritual teachings embedded . One fact is that God's sayings are available to us as interpretations by humans only. So these interpretations can have different perceptions. Topic was about Karna and not defending his evil deeds for that matter so I really dont see your point when you said that his fans defend his evil acts. Yes his life was tragic and the way he died was unfair battle ,having said that it was essential for pandavas to win the war so his death was justified. I might sympathise with Karna to any extent but that doesnt change the fact that I do see he was on wrong side of things so he died...
@TM- I do understand why you opened this topic and what you meant by it .But it is pointless to argue because this prejudice exists in many that if we say on Karna's side , we are taking side of adharma😆, which I truely find laughable now...
Edited by riti4u - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#84

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


Karna didn't repent. He just felt sorry, but he didn't do anything to repent, did he? There's a difference between feeling sorry and doing something to repent.


even if I say ok Karna didn't repent but felt sorry did Draupadi ever felt little sorry for insulting karna in public [addition: Karna was GUEST of their country then] .. not asking for doing it after VH but there was looong time between Draupadi's wedding n VH?? If Karna wronged Drau Drau too wronged Karna in earlier time .. Why Karna is only to be blamed??

2ndly if feeling sorry is not equal to repentance .. Is Avenging synonymous to repentance?? When crime is taking place in front of eyes I stay mum, let it happen and then take multiple oath of avenging it .. does it really make any sense .. isn't it like what we read in news papers .. when a victim is begging for help people deny to respond and when the crime becomes a national news they start rally n all

I am not saying Karna wasn't wrong .. I accept the outburst of anger happened in worst way .. He Must NOT do it but what about others? the way they behaved was it the ideal way?? sud we follow it?? or sud we question it?? Lets just agree that everyone was wronged and everyone was flawed .. Karna n Draupadi both suffered a lot n always brought the worst of each other .. it just happened
divyasn thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#85

Originally posted by: ..RamKiJanaki..


1) Yudhisthir never told Draupadi to bear with her molestation. He told her to try and evade Keechak for a little bit more time because the 13th year was almost over, and if they all tried to save Draupadi, they would be found out and have to go through another 13 year vanvaas. I can understand Yudhisthir's dilemma here. On the one hand he did care for his wife's safety, but on the other hand he and the other Pandavas badly wanted the exile to be over so that they could reclaim what was theirs. Draupadi herself wanted that. Yudhisthir never told Draupadi to submit herself to Keechak. He asked her to evade him for a few days more, because that's all they had before vanvaas was over, and then all five Pandavas would punish him together. Yudhisthir indicated to Draupadi that if she was just a bit more patient, then he and the other Pandavas would avenge her insult. In this incident, I do not fault Yudhisthir as I can understand his dilemma. He was only looking out for their best interest, for he was intelligent and knew that the Kauravas would be upon them in an instant if they caused a scene there. No where in the epic did he tell Draupadi to submit to Keechak's molestation. He told her to return to Queen Sudeshna's apartments and be patient.

Vaisampayana continued, 'And while the courtiers, having beheld Krishna (under such circumstances), were applauding her thus, Yudhishthira's forehead, from ire, became covered with sweat. And that bull of the Kuru race then addressed that princess, his beloved spouse, saying, 'Stay not here, O Sairindhri; but retire to the apartments of Sudeshna. The wives of heroes bear affliction for the sake of their husbands, and undergoing toil in ministering unto their lords, they at last attain to region where their husbands may go. Thy Gandharva husbands, effulgent as the sun, do not, I imagine, consider this as an occasion for manifesting their wrath, inasmuch as they do not rush to thy aid. OSairindhri, thou art ignorant of the timeliness of things, and it is for this that thou weepest as an actress, besides interrupting the play of dice in Matsya's court. Retire, O Sairindhri; the Gandharvas will do what is agreeable to thee. And they will surely display thy woe and take the life of him that hath wronged thee.'


2) Umm, Arjuna never wanted to marry Uttara. Where did you read this? When Virata offered Uttara in marriage to Arjuna, Arjuna refused her and told the King that he always viewed Uttara as a daughter, and that she'd make a more suitable wife for his son Abhimanyu. Krishna did not interfere in any part of Virata parva.

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Then the high-souled Virata, delighted greatly, approached king Yudhishthira and made an alliance with him, and offered him his whole kingdom together with the sceptre and treasury and metropolis. And addressing all the Pandavas, and especially Dhananjaya, the mighty king of the Matsyas repeatedly said, 'By good luck it is that I see you.' And having again and again embraced Yudhishthira and Bhima and the sons of Madri, and smelt their heads, Virata, that owner of a large army, was not satiated with gazing at them. And being highly pleased, he said unto king Yudhishthira, 'By good luck it is that I see you safe from woods. By good luck it is that ye have accomplished with difficulty the period of exile, undiscovered by those wicked wights. I make over my entire kingdom to the sons of Pritha, and what else I have. Let the sons of Pandu accept these without the slightest hesitation. And let Dhananjaya, called also Savyasachin, accept the hand of Uttara: for that best of men is fit to be her lord.' Thus addressed, king Yudhishthira the just cast a look upon Dhananjaya, the son of Pritha. And looked at by his brother, Arjuna said unto the Matsya king, 'O monarch, I accept thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. And alliance of this kind between the Matsya and the Bharatas is, indeed, desirable.'"

"Virata said, 'Why, O best among the Pandavas, dost thou not wish to accept as wife this my daughter that I bestow upon thee?'

"Arjuna said, 'Residing in thy inner apartments, I had occasion always to behold thy daughter, and she too, alone or in company trusted me as her father. Well-versed in singing and dancing, I was liked and regarded by her, and, indeed, thy daughter always regardeth me as her protector. O king, I lived for one whole year with her though she had attained the age of puberty. Under these circumstances, thyself or other men may not without reason, entertain suspicions against her or me. Therefore, O king, myself who am pure, and have my senses under control, beg to thee, O monarch, thy daughter as my daughter-in-law. Thus do I attest her purity. There is no difference between a daughter-in-law and a daughter, as also between a son and son's own-self. By adopting this course, therefore, her purity will be proved. I am afraid of slanderous and false accusations. I accept, therefore, O king, thy daughter Uttara as my daughter-in-law. Surpassing all in

p. 127

knowledge of weapons, resembling a celestial youth in beauty, my son, the mighty-armed Abhimanyu is the favourite nephew of Vasudeva, the wielder of the discus. He, O king, is fit to be thy son-in-law and the husband of thy daughter.'

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04072.htm



Here is the full citation


"Kichaka said, 'O thou of tresses ending in beautiful curls, thou art welcome. Surely, the night that is gone hath brought me an auspicious day, for I have got thee today as the mistress of my house. Do what is agreeable to me. Let golden chains, and conchs and bright ear-rings made of gold, manufactured in various countries, and beautiful rubies and gems, and silken robes and deer-skins, be brought for thee. I have also an excellent bed prepared for thee. Come, sitting upon it do thou drink with me the wine prepared from the honey flower.' Hearing these words, Draupadi said, 'I have been sent to thee by the princess for taking away wine. Do thou speedily bring me wine, for she told me that she is exceedingly thirsty.' And this, Kichaka said, 'O gentle lady, others will carry what the princess wants.' And saying this, the Suta's son caught hold of Draupadi's right arm. And at this, Draupadi exclaimed, 'As I have never, from intoxication of the senses, been unfaithful to my husbands even at heart, by that Truth, O wretch, I shall behold thee dragged and lying powerless on the ground.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Seeing that large-eyed lady reproving him in that strain, Kichaka suddenly seized her by the end of her upper garment as she attempted to run away. And seized with violence by Kichaka, the beautiful princess, unable to tolerate it, and with frame trembling with wrath, and breathing quickly, dashed him to the ground.

p. 28

[paragraph continues] And dashed to the ground thus, the sinful wretch tumbled down like a tree whose roots had been cut. And having thrown Kichaka down on the ground when the latter had seized her, she, trembling all over rushed to the court, where king Yudhishthira was, for protection. And while she was running with all her speed, Kichaka (who followed her), seizing her by the hair, and bringing her down on the ground, kicked her in the very presence of the king. Thereupon, O Bharata, the Rakshasa that had been appointed by Surya to protect Draupadi, gave Kichaka a shove with a force mighty as that of the wind. And overpowered by the force of Rakshasa, Kichaka reeled and fell down senseless on the ground, even like an uprooted tree. And both Yudhishthira and Bhimasena who were seated there, beheld with wrathful eyes that outrage on Krishna by Kichaka. And desirous of compassing the destruction of the wicked Kichaka, the illustrious Bhima gnashed his teeth in rage. And his forehead was covered with sweat, and terrible wrinkles appeared thereon. And a smoky exhalation shot forth from his eyes, and his eye-lashes stood on end. And that slayer of hostile heroes pressed his forehead with his hands. And impelled by rage, he was on the point of starting up with speed. Thereat king Yudhishthira, apprehensive of discovery, squeezed his thumbs and commanded Bhima to forbear. And Bhima who then looked like an infuriate elephant eyeing a large tree, was thus forbidden by his elder brother. And the latter said, 'Lookest thou, O cook, for trees for fuel. If thou art in need of faggots, then go out and fell trees.' And the weeping Draupadi of fair hips, approaching the entrance of the court, and seeing her melancholy lords, desirous yet of keeping up the disguise duty-bound by their pledge, with eyes burning in fire, spoke these words unto the king of the Matsyas, 'Alas, the son of a Suta hath kicked today the proud and beloved wife of those whose foe can never sleep in peace even if four kingdoms intervene between him and them. Alas, the son of a Suta hath kicked today the proud and beloved wife of those truthful personages, who are devoted to Brahmanas and who always give away without asking any thing in gift. Alas! the son of a Suta hath kicked today the proud and beloved wife of those, the sounds of whose kettle-drums and the twangs of whose bow-strings are ceaselessly heard. Alas, the son of a Suta hath kicked today the proud and beloved wife of those who are possessed of abundant energy and might, and who are liberal in gifts and proud of their dignity. Alas, the son of a Suta hath kicked today the proud and beloved wife of those who, if they had not been fettered by the ties of duty, could destroy this entire world. Where, alas, are those mighty warriors today who, though living in disguise, have always granted protection unto those that solicit it? Oh, why do those heroes today, endued as they are with strength and possessed of immeasurable energy, quietly suffer, like eunuchs, their dear and chaste wife to be thus insulted by a Suta's son? Oh, where is that wrath of theirs, that prowess, and that energy, when they quietly bear their wife

p. 29

to be thus insulted by a wicked wretch? What can I (a weak woman) do when Virata, deficient in virtue, coolly suffereth my innocent self to be thus wronged by a wretch? Thou dost not, O king, act like a king towards this Kichaka. Thy behaviour is like that of a robber, and doth not shine in a court. That I should thus be insulted in thy very presence, O Matsya, is highly improper. Oh, let all the courtiers here look at this violence of Kichaka. Kichaka is ignorant of duty and morality, and Matsya also is equally so. These courtiers also that wait upon such a king are destitute of virtue.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'With these and other words of the same kind the beautiful Krishna with tearful eyes rebuked the king of the Matsyas. And hearing her, Virata said, 'I do not know what your dispute has been out of our sight. Not knowing the true cause how can I show my discrimination?' Then the courtiers, having learnt every thing, applauded Krishna, and they all exclaimed, 'Well done!' 'Well done!' and censured Kichaka. And the courtiers said, 'That person who owneth this large-eyed lady having every limb of hers endued with beauty for his wife, possesseth what is of exceeding value and hath no occasion to indulge in any grief. Surely, such a damsel of transcendent beauty and limbs perfectly faultless is rare among men. Indeed, it seems to us that she is a goddess.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'And while the courtiers, having beheld Krishna (under such circumstances), were applauding her thus, Yudhishthira's forehead, from ire, became covered with sweat. And that bull of the Kuru race then addressed that princess, his beloved spouse, saying, 'Stay not here, O Sairindhri; but retire to the apartments of Sudeshna. The wives of heroes bear affliction for the sake of their husbands, and undergoing toil in ministering unto their lords, they at last attain to region where their husbands may go. Thy Gandharva husbands, effulgent as the sun, do not, I imagine, consider this as an occasion for manifesting their wrath, inasmuch as they do not rush to thy aid. O Sairindhri, thou art ignorant of the timeliness of things, and it is for this that thou weepest as an actress, besides interrupting the play of dice in Matsya's court. Retire, O Sairindhri; the Gandharvas will do what is agreeable to thee. And they will surely display thy woe and take the life of him that hath wronged thee.' Hearing these words the Sairindhri replied, 'They of whom I am the wedded wife are, I ween, extremely kind. And as the eldest of them all is addicted to dice, they are liable to be oppressed by all.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'And having said this, the fair-hipped Krishna with dishevelled hair and eyes red in anger, ran towards the apartments of Sudhesna. And in consequence of having wept long her face looked beautiful like the lunar disc in the firmament, emerged from the clouds. And beholding her in that condition, Sudeshna asked, 'Who, O beauteous lady, hath insulted thee? Why, O amiable damsel, dost thou weep? Who, gentle one, hath done thee wrong? Whence is

p. 30

this thy grief?' Thus addressed, Draupadi said, 'As I went to bring wine for thee, Kichaka struck me in the court in the very presence of the king, as if in the midst of a solitary wood.' Hearing this, Sudeshna said, 'O thou of tresses ending in beautiful curls, as Kichaka, maddened by lust hath insulted thee that art incapable of being possessed by him, I shall cause him to be slain if thou wishest it.' Thereupon Draupadi answered, 'Even others will slay him,--even they whom he hath wronged, I think it is clear that he will have to go to the abode of Yama this very day!'


See Yudishtira didnt even move a single finger to protect Draupadi

Edited by divyasn - 11 years ago
Rehanism thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#86
I never knew Bhim bullied the Kauravas to the point of death. I guess that does away with a lot of culpability of the poisoning incident. Clearly it wasn't solely a consequence of jealousy or wickedness on part of Duryodhan as we are made to believe. This gives me one more reason to like Ajaya.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#87

Originally posted by: srishtisingh

come on yar! some people like karna some people hate.just accept the difference. do u people really need to make others feed ur words because both of u know none is going to accept others argument!

...👏
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Posted: 11 years ago
#88

Originally posted by: ..dreamygatz..

thank you!! its rare to see ppl like u! !! 😳
I have nothing against Arjun or any Pandav! In MB every character has got their own flaw!

I feel very blissful when some one praise me like this😳😳!! and yeah i agree with u😊
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Posted: 11 years ago
#89
Karna was killed in the war coz he participated.. Pandavas went to exile coz they lost the second game of dice.. Neither was a punishment for any of their other deeds.. I consider it plain bull shit to claim so..
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#90
Thanks for the citation 'full' divyasn.

its fascinating that people say Yudisthira and the other 4 Pandavas repented, Bhima did as much he could so I don't think he needed any form of repentance. But Yudi, the guy staked his wife, his brothers and for his damn mistake they went to exile for 13 years, and even when his wife was eve-teased by Kichaka, he did nothing, in fact he kinda told her to avoid him.

The great war was for the kingdom, Yudisthira specifically mentions this, I wonder where did the repentance go, it was Bhima who fought and took revenge for Draupadi, all Yudisthira wanted was the kingdom and his wealth.
Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago

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