death of tragic hero karna - Page 10

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Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#91

Originally posted by: Sabhayata


Great
so in the same context please tell what hardships did pandavas face except for their exile after lakshagarh that wasn't their own doing ?

I dont know -- being born in a freaking forest and living like Nishads till they were teenagers? -- A non-working Father? --living disconnected from city, society and the place that was supposed to be their home along with the 100 terrors of Dhritarashtra? Having a sadder social and economic life than that of their fathers former soldiers in the city? A dead father who they remembered because they were old enough by then and a dead mother?No royal luxuries and servants and food for them? Clearly very blind Uncle who would turn a blind eye to everything? Let his sons do whatever they want and let them get away with it? Like poisoning his deceased brother's son whose Kingdom he was ruling -- a prosperous Kingdom with vessels on vessels subjugated by the Father of Pandavas?Like trying to burn his brother's son and wife -- and not taking any step against his son and his allies after the deed was done? Being given barren land to rule after they came back from living in a forest-Again! Being cheated and having all of their prosperous kingdom which they found, earnings and all the fruit of their hard work taken away by a greedy jealous cousin and his allies? Having to wander around in forest -- Again?
It's just that they weren't the kind of people to complain about their circumstances so no one thinks its big deal.
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#92

Originally posted by: Medha.S

I dont know -- being born in a freaking forest and living like Nishads till they were teenagers? -- A non-working Father? --living disconnected from city, society and the place that was supposed to be their home along with the 100 terrors of Dhritarashtra? Having a sadder social and economic life than that of their fathers former soldiers in the city? A dead father who they remembered because they were old enough by then and a dead mother?No royal luxuries and servants and food for them? Clearly very blind Uncle who would turn a blind eye to everything? Let his sons do whatever they want and let them get away with it? Like poisoning his deceased brother's son whose Kingdom he was ruling -- a prosperous Kingdom with vessels on vessels subjugated by the Father of Pandavas?Like trying to burn his brother's son and wife -- and not taking any step against his son and his allies after the deed was done? Being given barren land to rule after they came back from living in a forest-Again! Being cheated and having all of their prosperous kingdom which they found, earnings and all the fruit of their hard work taken away by a greedy jealous cousin and his allies? Having to wander around in forest -- Again?
It's just that they weren't the kind of people to complain about their circumstances so no one thinks its big deal.



What terror?, it was Bhima who became terror for the Kauravas, the Kauravas did nothing when the Pandavas came back, in fact Bhima drowned Kaurava near death, he broke their limbs and body parts, dragged them by their hair, made them fight each other and shook the trees when the Kaurava's climbed to pick the fruit.

What cheat?, Nobody forced Yudisthira to play the second game hell nobody forced him to play the first game also, his fault - his exile, nobody put a Brahmastra on Yudi's head to stake his wife and brothers. It was simple that Shakuni was more skilled compared to Yudisthira, even the Critical Edition mention this.

Here is what Krishna says about the game of dice from the CE.

"..When, in the assembly hall, Yudhishthira, who was not skilled at dice, was defeated by Shakuni, who was skilled at dice, where did dharma go then.."


Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago
riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#93

Originally posted by: TheWatcher



What terror?, it was Bhima who became terror for the Kauravas, the Kauravas did nothing when the Pandavas came back, in fact Bhima drowned Kaurava near death, he broke their limbs and body parts, dragged them by their hair, made them fight each other and shook the trees when the Kaurava's climbed to pick the fruit.

What cheat?, Nobody forced Yudisthira to play the second game hell nobody forced him to play the first game also, his fault - his exile, it was simple that Shakuni was more skilled compared to Yudisthira, even the Critical Edition mention this.




And adding to Watcher 's point - Their guru didnt show any bias in teaching them due to their caste infact showed bias due to them with other students. They were loved by people around like Bheeshma and vidur barring exception of drit n his children and not called as worst of mortals ... and mocked at for their caste and birth..
...Diala... thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#94
and the citizens were made to believe that they were God's children.. their birth was not considered Niyoga.. also they were cousins of Krishna who was believed to be God Incarnation even then... what other advantage you need? Sadly, Karna was one but not known to be..
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#95

Originally posted by: TheWatcher



What terror?, it was Bhima who became terror for the Kauravas, the Kauravas did nothing when the Pandavas came back, in fact Bhima drowned Kaurava near death, he broke their limbs and body parts, dragged them by their hair, made them fight each other and shook the trees when the Kaurava's climbed to pick the fruit.

What cheat?, Nobody forced Yudisthira to play the second game hell nobody forced him to play the first game also, his fault - his exile, nobody put a Brahmastra on Yudi's head to stake his wife and brothers. It was simple that Shakuni was more skilled compared to Yudisthira, even the Critical Edition mention this.

Here is what Krishna says about the game of dice from the CE.

"..When, in the assembly hall, Yudhishthira, who was not skilled at dice, was defeated by Shakuni, who was skilled at dice, where did dharma go then.."


citations? for drowning and body part breaking?

What cheat? Yes, Yudhisthira said yes to play the game. His decision. Did he agreed to play against Shakuni who was using 'Unfair means'? No. So thats that.Cheating. Or am i supposed to overlook that?
He agreed to play the game. Did Shakuni informed him that hey I am gonna cheat, you can too if you have it in you?

Thus addressed, Sakuni said unto the chief of the perpetuators of the Kuru race, the eldest of the sons of Pandu, king Yudhishthira, of glory incapable of sustaining any diminution. 'Lo, I have won!'"

Yudhishthira said,--'This my sacred and victorious and royal car which gladdeneth the heart and hath carried us hither, which is equal unto a thousand cars, which is of symmetrical proportions and covered with tiger-skin, and furnished with excellent wheels and flag-staffs which is handsome, and decked with strings of little bells, whose clatter is even like the roar of the clouds or of the ocean, and which is drawn by eight noble steeds known all over the kingdom and which are white as the moon-beam

p. 117

and from whose hoofs no terrestrial creature can escape--this, O king, is my wealth with which I will stake with thee!'"

Vaisampayana continued,--"Hearing these words, Sakuni ready with the dice, and adopting unfair means, said unto Yudhishthira, 'Lo, I have won!'

"Yudhishthira said,--'I have a hundred thousand serving-girls, all young, and decked with golden bracelets on their wrists and upper arms, and with nishkas round their necks and other ornaments, adorned with costly garlands and attired in rich robes, daubed with the sandal paste, wearing jewels and gold, and well-skilled in the four and sixty elegant arts, especially versed in dancing and singing, and who wait upon and serve at my command the celestials, the Snataka Brahmanas, and kings. With this wealth, O king, I will stake with thee!'"

Vaisampayana continued,--'Hearing these words, Sakuni ready with the dice, adopting unfair means, said unto Yudhishthira. 'Lo, I have won!'

Yudhishthira said,--"I have thousands of serving-men, skilled in waiting upon guests, always attired in silken robes, endued with wisdom and intelligence, their senses under control though young, and decked with ear-rings, and who serve all guests night and day with plates and dishes in hand. With this wealth, O king, I will stake with thee!'"

Vaisampayana continued,--"Hearing these words, Sakuni, ready with the dice, adopting unfair means said unto Yudhishthira, 'Lo, I have won!'

"Yudhishthira said,--'I have, O son of Suvala, one thousand musty elephants with golden girdles, decked with ornaments, with the mark of the lotus on their temples and necks and other parts, adorned with golden garlands, with fine white tusks long and thick as plough-shafts, worthy of carrying kings on their backs, capable of bearing every kind of noise on the field of battle, with huge bodies, capable of battering down the walls of hostile towns, of the colour of new-formed clouds, and each possessing eight she-elephants. With this wealth, O king, I will stake with thee.'"

Vaisampayana continued,--"Unto Yudhishthira who had said so, Sakuni, the son of Suvala, laughingly said, 'Lo, I have won it!'


Vaisampayana continued, "Hearing this, Sakuni, ready at dice, adopting unfair means, said unto Yudhishthira: 'Lo, I have won!'

Yudhishthira said,--'I have ten thousand cars and vehicles unto which are yoked draught animals of the foremost breed. And I have also sixty thousand warriors picked from each order by thousands, who are all brave and endued with prowess like heroes, who drink milk and eat good rice, and all of whom have broad chests. With this wealth, O king, I will stake with thee.'

Vaisampayana continued,--"Hearing this, Sakuni ready at dice, adopting unfair means said unto Yudhishthira, 'Lo, I have won!'

Yudhishthira said,--'I have four hundred Nidis (jewels of great value) encased in sheets of copper and iron. Each one of them is equal to five draunikas of the costliest and purest leaf gold of the Jatarupa kind. With this wealth, O king, I will stake with thee.'"

Vaisampayana continued,--"Hearing this, Sakuni ready at dice, adopting foul means, said unto Yudhishthira, 'Lo, I have won it!'"


TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#96
Citation for Bhima almost killing the Kaurava's. it is just after Pandavas had come to Hastinapur.

"..The son of the Wind-god pulled them by the hair and made them fight with one another, laughing all the while. And Vrikodara easily defeated those hundred and one children of great energy as if they were one instead of being a hundred and one. The second Pandava used to seize them by the hair, and throwing them down, to drag them along the earth. By this, some had their knees broken, some their heads, and some their shoulders. That youth, sometimes holding ten of them, drowned them in water, till they were nearly dead..."

And this was before any mishap took place, this was the reason Duryodhana planned to poison to Bhima.

Please also mention what unfair means did Shakuni use. A mere mention without any specific claim wont cut it. Its like saying he did wrong and not knowing what he did wrong.


Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago
adoremevirgo thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#97

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

Thanks for the citation 'full' divyasn.

its fascinating that people say Yudisthira and the other 4 Pandavas repented, Bhima did as much he could so I don't think he needed any form of repentance. But Yudi, the guy staked his wife, his brothers and for his damn mistake they went to exile for 13 years, and even when his wife was eve-teased by Kichaka, he did nothing, in fact he kinda told her to avoid him.

The great war was for the kingdom, Yudisthira specifically mentions this, I wonder where did the repentance go, it was Bhima who fought and took revenge for Draupadi, all Yudisthira wanted was the kingdom and his wealth.



exactly thatz another point i wud like to mention (though not topic of this thread)...the war was fought for kingdom...so to say that pandavas fought for revenge for the injustice meted on draupadi is total crap..

personally...i feel protecting wife's honor is the most important dharma for any man...a woman after getting married expects all kinds of respect and protection from her husband...prior to marriage she has that expectation from her parents and after marriage from her husband...wats the point of having a great archer as a husband, someone with 1000 elephants' shakti as a husband, someone renowned for dharma as husband...wen all of them remained silent wen she was being dragged into the court and disrobed...

wat dharma were the pandavas fulfilling by watching their wife being humiliated...ok they lost the dice game...they were enslaved by duryodhana...but which is more adharam that is my question...disobeying the master (i.e. duryodhana) and running to save one's wife or sitting silently and watching wife's humiliation in the name of following master's order...sheer bullshit...hypocrisy to the point of infinity...

again i am saying i am not defending karna, shakuni or the kauravas...but since in a karna thread ppl r busy highlighting the virtues of pandavas and vices of karna and kauravas...i had to write on this...

ok karna and kauravas r evil...its like i will keep my door open at night to make it easy for a thief to enter and steal...and then i will put the entire blame on the thief...
pandavas always hv known the evil intentions of shakuni and duryodhana...yet yudi accepted the game of dice...and not stopping at that...he went on playing till he lost everything including his brothers and wife...wat kind of behavior was that from someone who is known as the greatest dharma putra...

it is easy to point fingers at the evil ppl since their actions r more blatant with cruelty and inhumanity... my problem is with those so called "saintly" ppl who pave the way for the evil ppl to hv their way and then stand back and say "let them do their evil actions...i will take revenge later" HA HA HA


divyasn thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#98
One more doubt ... if 100 kauravas can stand together as a team without a common wife , what was the need of Draupadi sharing to keep 5 Pandavas together ... 😕


Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#99
And what good did it do them to be called Gods children? What kind of advantage did they got from it? And if we are going by, they were 'believed' to be gods children by the citizens for Kuntis and their own benefit -- not because they were Gods children -- just myth --- then there is that, same applies for Karna. who knows who Karnas real father was and if his kavach was invincible or not -- the only father to him was Adhiratha like the only father Pandavas had was Pandu -- not the mythical sun god who is usually believed to be Karna's Father and other gods who are believed to be Pandavas fathers?

And I am not familiar with the techniques of cheating you can apply during dice and the text doesnt mentioned it either, so i am left guessing.But Shakuni used 'Unfair Means' over and over and over and over again, at least that is clearly mentioned so there is that.
If the citation doesnt mention the kind of cheating techniques Shakuni was using, well, I cant do anything about that.
Edited by Medha.S - 11 years ago
Medha.S thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago

Originally posted by: divyasn

One more doubt ... if 100 kauravas can stand together as a team without a common wife , what was the need of Draupadi sharing to keep 5 Pandavas together ... 😕



Because the 100 Kauravas didn't fell in love with the same woman at the same time?

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