Suryadeva, Rishi Durvasa and abandonment - what should they have done? - Page 6

Originally posted by: medha00

And as you can see, that this is not true only in Kunti's case.

Agreed!

As people are pointing out, he did what he could. But, if it was up to him to chose a good home for his son, then why not a Kshatriya Family? His son was not meant to be raised as a Suta, he was going to grow up to be a warrior, so why not chose a family for him accordingly?

And say, he wanted to honor Kunti's wish to be not revealed as the mother, but he very well could have revealed the identity of the Father. Kunti saw Karna after Rangbhoomi but Surydeva was always there, ever since he was a child.And if Drona refused Karna the knowledge of Brahmastra or whatever it was, Suryadeva could have at least revealed himself as the Father, privately to Drona.

Rishi Durvasa could have handed the Mantra to her family, her Father or any elder in her family too. It is not a great deal of bother to at least warn her '' Use it, have a baby, don't want a baby? don't want to be a mother at present?don't use it. Consult your elders, before Marriage. Get married, take permission from your husband, then use it."

Originally posted by: varaali

Would have made no difference.

Dronacharya did not deny Karna the knowledge of Brahmashira because he of his caste. FYI Sutas did qualify as 'kshatriyas'.

Dronachraya felt Karna was not ready yet. Even if Arjuna had asked at that point in time, Drona would have refused.

It was only much later that Arjuna himself received this knowledge.

Originally posted by: medha00

Yes, Vrish did say that Sutas were Kshatriyas too - children of Kshatriya Father and Brahmin mother? I am not sure.

I dont buy in all the Caste thing. Shows exaggerate it and being a Suta is not respectable enough or something, as you saw in the SP MB. Karna's Father said something more or less close to the fact that they cant have respect or something like that.

But here, people insist on the fact that Drona refused on the basis of Caste and not because Karna was not ready then or that as a teacher, he did not find Karna fit enough at that time, moreover, apparently, it has been pointed out to me repeatedly that apart from KMG, many translations of MB say that Drona want not Karnas teacher at all, had refused to be his teacher because of his Suta status and Parshurama was the only teacher he had.

So, i was merely making the statement according to that.

And if Karna did not have any problem with his adopted parents caste, then why such a big deal is made out of it?

A good home was chosen for him, he had loving parents and an earning father.

Why blame Kunti for him not being given the true respect in life and having a difficult childhood, when being a Suta is not disrespectful at all, as you pointed out that Sutas do qualify as Kshatriyas too.

Originally posted by: varaali

@ blue : So according to you, Sutas - Karna included - were dependent on the 'higher castes' for their survival? And what do you mean by ' better status than was entitled to a Suta..." Please read the very first adhyaay from Srimad Bhagavataham to know how much respect Ugrasriva got from Brahmins. The whole business of "Sutas- lower caste - oppressed" is vote bank politics permeated by serial makers.

As I have said earlier, the only restriction on Sutas was on their marriage - not anywhere else. And even here we find exceptions. Queen Sudhishina- wife of Raja Virata was a Suta herself.

@ red: I didn't understand you point here. I said that the Avanti princes, the Kashi princes etc, despite being part of Drona's gurukulam did not participate in the rangabhoomi b'cos it was meant only for Kuru princes- not outsiders. Karna was not a Kuru prince and he had no business being therein the first place.

In any case I am retiring from this discussion.

Originally posted by: varaali

@ red: Would have made no difference.

Dronacharya did not deny Karna the knowledge of Brahmashira because he of his caste. FYI Sutas did qualify as 'kshatriyas'.

Dronachraya felt Karna was not ready yet. Even if Arjuna had asked at that point in time, Drona would have refused.

It was only much later that Arjuna himself received this knowledge.

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

But this is what Drona says.. Drona was partial to Arjuna and knew Karna to be wicked so he refused saying it is only for Brahmana and Kshatriya.. Where does he say Karna needs some more time to prepare himself? He never seems to have given Karna any option as such..

Karna. one day approached Drona in private and said these words unto him, 'I desire to be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, with all its mantras and the power of withdrawing it, for I desire to fight Arjuna. Without doubt, the affection thou bearest to every one of thy pupils is equal to what thou bearest to thy own son. I pray that all the masters of the science of weapons may, through thy grace, regard me as one accomplished in weapons!' Thus addressed by him, Drona, from partiality for Phalguna, as also from his knowledge of the wickedness of Karna, said, 'None but a Brahmana, who has duly observed all vows, should be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, or a Kshatriya that has practised austere penances, and no other.'

Originally posted by: varaali

Exactly...Where does it state that Drona refused to teach him because of he was a Suta?

And even to Arjuna, Drona imparts the secret only much later- after the former proved himself against Drupada and after Arjuna successfully mastered few more difficult weapons.

Originally posted by: varaali

Dronacharya did not deny Karna the knowledge of Brahmashira because he of his caste. FYI Sutas did qualify as 'kshatriyas'.

Dronachraya felt Karna was not ready yet. Even if Arjuna had asked at that point in time, Drona would have refused.

It was only much later that Arjuna himself received this knowledge.

Originally posted by: ...Diala...

I don't understand what you are trying to say.. saying it is only for Brahmanas & Kshatriyas is how different from saying it is not for Sutas? how come Karna is wrong if he thinks B & K are better entitled? it was Drona himself who said that..

Also Drona lets Karna leave his school on saying this.. he never stopped him saying later at a stage I will teach you..

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I was leaving this thread, since it's gone way beyond the question of Surya/Durvasa, but I'll answer this one, since the very premise is mistaken.

Karna approached Drona for the Brahmashira knowledge after Drona had given it to Arjun: there is nothing in Shanti parva that suggests otherwise. Drona said nothing about readiness - his only criteria was caste. He also said nothing about who deserves to have it or who doesn't. Nothing is mentioned about whether he taught that to Yudisthir or Duryodhan, for example.

My problem w/ your argument here is giving Drona the benefit of the doubt by assuming that he had more befitting criteria in judging who to teach this weapon. If one goes not by caste but by temperament, how was Karna a less suitable recipient than Ashwatthama, who was taught the weapon, once he saw that Arjun had received it? Both were jealous of Arjun, but Ashwatthama was worse.

The reason Karna wanted this was that Drona had taught it to Arjun. Since Karna wanted to be superior to Arjun, he obviously needed this, and hence his pursuit to Parashurama. As a warrior, your job is to gain superiority over your enemy. With Arjun having received this, there is no way that Karna could just let it go.

Here is a thought experiment - if Parashurama hadn't cursed Karna w/ forgetting the mantra for that weapon, you can bet that just like b/w Ashwatthama-Arjun, Karna & Arjun's brahmashiras would have collided, and both would have been asked to recall each. Now, Karna may have been capable of doing it - or not. But here's my question - if he couldn't recall it and had to redirect it instead, do you think that he would have redirected it at the wombs of the Pandava womenfolk?

I don't. So if on temperament grounds Ashwatthama was good enough to get it, so was Karna.

Incidentally, my real opinion on this one is that either Parashurama or Drona was at fault. Drona needn't have taught that to anyone, and neither have Parashurama. They didn't need to give their pupils weapons w/ which to destroy the entire earth, which is what the Brahmashira was.

Had Drona, or better yet Parashurama, not given it to anyone, things would have been a lot better.

Anyway, this is my last post in this thread - we can take this discussion to the D&D thread, or create another thread instead.