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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#41
My dear Riti,

I agree with you that all things in life are relative. But if this argument is pushed to extremes, it will become a total cop out, with no notions of good or bad.

For example, Draupadi's cheerharan was unquestionablly evil, and no amount of sophistry can mask that. So would the Lakshagrih murder attempt. It is open to question what exactly Karna did, or did not do, on both these occasions.

It is another matter that the other day, a member, whose account has been temporarily closed, wrote a mega post trying to prove that the cheerharan never happened and, inter alia, that Karna was trying to protect Draupadi far more than the Pandavas were. I did not have the energy or the inclination to wade through that person's tortuous arguments, which were all based on various citations from the Mahabharata.

Earlier, on the first day I came to this forum, I saw two threads condemning the "whitewashing" of Karna, and trashing him in no uncertain terms, again citing various ultra respectable translations of the epic, including, if I remember correctly, the one by the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute in my home city, Pune.

I am not a scholar of our classics, or of our Devabhasha Sanskrit either. And though I live in Pune, I have never visited the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute or read their translation of the Mahabharata. I have thus no idea which of the arguments cited by me above is borne out by the original text. The same goes for the instance that you have cited.

I stay out of the forums of mythological and religious serials for precisely this reason: I do not want to get bogged down in disputations centred on such strong and contrary beliefs, which often end up as knock down and drag out wars. I came here because the show was described as a fictitious one based on the Mahabharata characters, and I intend to stay with that position.

This said, I do appreciate your concern at black and white stands In the case of Karna, even the simple, traditional understanding I have of the Mahabharata clearly shows that he is neither black nor white. Which is precisely why he is so fascinating as a character.

Shyamala Aunty


Originally posted by: riti4u

@Shymala Aunty - I think it would be difficult to categorize what karna has done on adharm side. Well definition of dharm depends on person interpretation of it too..and importance of what virtue he holds most important in his life..We should not forget the fact that Karna would have it so easy if he was actually on adharm side when Krishna offered him to own up hastinapur throne..but he chose not to simply coz he wanted Yudi to become King..as in original translation if I recall he admits to seeing a dream where he sees..yudhistir as king and all this being a sacrifice for greater good.. Yes he made mistakes ,some of it were unpardonable..and yes it took him towards an end.. which was tragic.. We should not look things as black and white because definitely they are not so clear always..

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#42
Dear Jamy,

As expected, a beautiful and though -provoking post, though it is not always clear, at least to me, what the thoughts should be.

I agree with you that dharma has never been clearly defined, but I always thought that Yudhistira agreed to the dice game because no Kshatriya could refuse a challenge to a battle or to a dyuth game, that it was not a question of his personal dharma but of the general one for his caste.

As for the different retellings of the Mahabharata and whether they support the Kauravas or the Pandavas, I simply do not know. Nor, I suspect, do many far more learned in such matters than I , as I have discussed in my response above to Riti. For they do not seem to agree even on the most basic issues, and are in fact totally at odds with each other.

I stay out of these verbal wars, citing my ignorance, and I am quite happy with the simple understanding of the epic and its characters that I gained from my early readings, such as that of Rajaji's summary rendition.

This said, I absolutely loved your last para, which is poetry masquerading as prose. 👏

Shyamala


Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

As far as my knowledge goes, none is left that we didn't discuss!

Dharma is perhaps the most baffling word, next to RITA, I came across in Sanskrit. Everyone uses it quite often. There is no other word that is repeated so much in Mahabharata. But no one says what does it mean specifically. AFAIK, the first time usage of this word is in Purusha Sukta of Rig Veda. There, right after explaining the evolution of universe, it says 'and the sages followed Dharma'! But what is that dharma? There are no explanations. It is not mathematics to assume the unknown as X, it is life. So we can't pinpoint on something that no one knows.

Yudhishthira says he would play dice because it was his dharma. How do any of us know what was his Dharma? Today's right and wrong is mainly resulted from 'Brahmana dharma', we have lost any work related to 'Kshatriya dharma'. There are two characters in Mahabharata, who ask why no one protects Dharma! One is Karna and the other is Vyasa himself. Vyasa worried that no one protected this 'dharma', even after writing the entire story. That DOES mean something.

In Mahabharata, there are many retellings of the same event, and if we see the story and characters as a whole, rather than from the myopic perspective of a certain single character, all these variables collectively prove more supportive to Kauravas than Pandavas. We can't malign everyone, including the poor Kuru subjects and their nationalism, for just one person. It is in fact quite easy to prove that no insult of nobody happened. On the contrary, it is not at all easy to disprove that nobody lied about being insulted. What does that make nobody, I don't know! Don't ask me!

I agree that a crime is a crime no matter what, but a more serious crime is making such allegations on people who didn't do it. Bad people and LIARS are everywhere, they are not dedicated to a particular sect.

I am not saying this because I like a certain or I don't like another. I LOVE to stand at the right place, even if my heart tells otherwise. I don't like Duryodhana, I also don't like Yudhishthira. But I WILL support them if they are questioned for the wrong reasons, if ANYONE is questioned for the wrong reason. [Yudhi fans should party at this, given how I treated him a few years ago.😆]

As a human, I always give more value to integrity than emotions. Sometimes, it is difficult for me, to mercilessly uproot my beliefs and plant a new one, but no growth has ever come without pain. When a bud flowers, the bud is forever lost, but a more beautiful being is born. It takes time, but not impossible for anyone who wish to grow. Those who would like to stay wherever they are, it is their choice.


Originally posted by: riti4u

@Shymala Aunty - I think it would be difficult to categorize what karna has done on adharm side. Well definition of dharm depends on person interpretation of it too..and importance of what virtue he holds most important in his life..We should not forget the fact that Karna would have it so easy if he was actually on adharm side when Krishna offered him to own up hastinapur throne..but he chose not to simply coz he wanted Yudi to become King..as in original translation if I recall he admits to seeing a dream where he sees..yudhistir as king and all this being a sacrifice for greater good.. Yes he made mistakes ,some of it were unpardonable..and yes it took him towards an end.. which was tragic.. We should not look things as black and white because definitely they are not so clear always..



Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#43
Dear Sabita,

This is not to critique your post or to question your doubts about the rights and the wrongs in the Mahabharata. I am just adding, in blue italics, a couple of clarifications that you might find interesting.

You might also like to see my responses above to Riti and Jamy.

Shyamala Aunty

PS: Gangasnanam aaccha?

Originally posted by: gemini54

@jamy I have no words for your outstanding post other than say take a Bow


Especially for these below
As a human, I always give more value to integrity than emotions. Sometimes, it is difficult for me, to mercilessly uproot my beliefs and plant a new one, but no growth has ever come without pain. When a bud flowers, the bud is forever lost, but a more beautiful being is born. It takes time, but not impossible for anyone who wish to grow. Those who would like to stay wherever they are, it is their choice.

I have not read much writing in Sanskrit so may not be able to contribute to yourwriting effectively but the essence is Right versus Wrong.
Who makes the rules. In the Dice match Yudhistra pawned his wife was she his property ?. The game of dice was between Yudhistra and Duryodhan then why was Shakuni playing in Duryodhan behalf?

Not just that, Yudhishtira pawns his wife AFTER he has lost the throw, and has thus become a slave of Duryodhana's . He thus no longer has the right to pledge anyone. But he goes ahead, regardless. It is the height of irregularity. I have always despised Yudhishtira for this and his other major failings.

Dhritirashra was the first born and the rightful heir to the king but he was thought not fit because of his blindness a disability but did not Pandu have an ailment too.

Yes, but Pandu's ailment was not such as to disqualify him from kingship. Dhritharashtra's was. A blind king would not command the authority and acceptance that would be needed.

The children the Pandavas were born of gods not Pandus but Yudhistra was still considered the rightful heir.

They were called Pandavas, or Pandu putras because they were born under the Niyoga option, that was acceptable then. In fact Dhritharashtra, Pandu and Vidur were all fathered under the same pratha.

When a husband was incapable, for whatever reason, of fathering a child (in the case I have cited above it was because Vichitravirya was dead, and Satyavati stretched the Niyoga concept to breaking point😉!), his wife could, with the husband's consent, have physical relations with another man and beget a child, who would then be recognised as the child of the husband.

In Kunti's and Madri's cases, the five boys - Yudhishtira, Bhima and Arjuna for Kunti, and Nakula and Sahadeva for Madri - were born of different gods, but always with Pandu's consent. So they were all accepted as Pandavas and as Kuru princes, and Yudhishtira, as the eldest, was the heir to the throne of Hastinapur.

So who makes these so called rules of right and wrong and is there a clear demarcation between right or wrong or is it open to interpretation?
Thoughts to ponder.

There are a lot of loopholes and doubtful passages in the Mahabharata, and even in the more black and white Ramayana. But I feel that to push the relativity argument to extremes would only end in there being no more sense of good and bad, and that would push us all into chaos.

I want to thank you again for the brilliant piece of writing

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago
Brahmaputra thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#44

Originally posted by: sashashyam

Dear Jamy,

As expected, a beautiful and though -provoking post, though it is not always clear, at least to me, what the thoughts should be.

I agree with you that dharma has never been clearly defined, but I always thought that Yudhistira agreed to the dice game because no Kshatriya could refuse a challenge to a battle or to a dyuth game, that it was not a question of his personal dharma but of the general one for his caste.

As for the different retellings of the Mahabharata and whether they support the Kauravas or the Pandavas, I simply do not know. Nor, I suspect, do many far more learned in such matters than I , as I have discussed in my response above to Riti. For they do not seem to agree even on the most basic issues, and are in fact totally at odds with each other.

I stay out of these verbal wars, citing my ignorance, and I am quite happy with the simple understanding of the epic and its characters that I gained from my early readings, such as that of Rajaji's summary rendition.

This said, I absolutely loved your last para, which is poetry masquerading as prose. 👏

Shyamala



@red - Shyamala ji, it is an old story. May we never face such times when I have to tell you that.😆

It is always the best to stay out of verbal wars, especially citation wars! Even Vyasa might fall unconscious seeing us. The point is, it is easy to tag people wrong, especially those who are dead, but they also were once like us. And now, they can't even defend themselves. Their memories are still somewhere in this air, we might not know. So let not us be befallen tomorrow by what we say today.

And I can never be thankful enough for your appreciations. But in this online world, thanks is all I have.😊
gemini54 thumbnail
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Posted: 6 years ago
#45
@ aunty thanks for the clarifications in blue and I don't mind at all some of them I was not aware at all like why it was ok for Kunti to have children from the Gods. It makes even sadder that if Karna would have been after kunti's marriage he would have been the rightful heir
Edited by gemini54 - 6 years ago

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