RESPECT - Page 4

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kaku17

@kaku17

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

#31

Sorry to barge in but I wholeheartedly agree with Shyamala auntie wrt Aham Sharma. . He was phenomenal as "Karna" in MB... he was subtle but always on point... That guy literally emotes with his eyes. ..Aham Sharma's "Karn" is bae 😳

Ashim Gulati needs to pull up his socks... Sometimes his expressions confuse me especially when he was poisoned and held Urvi's hand... I couldn't understand what he was trying to convey...was it pain on being poisoned (ideally should be not he being Kshatriya, can endure pain which gave him away in front of his guru Parshuram) or was he trying to implore Urvi to understand his pov or was it simply a love sick expression...

Edited by kaku17 - 6 years ago

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

#32

🤗

Thanks a lot, my dear. I am glad to see that my drishtikon is gathering support!

Aham Sharma, for whom I watch Vikram Betaal, a decidedly B grade production, makes me regret daily that he is not the Karna here. It is not, I feel, that Ashim is not trying. I am sure he is doing his best. But the emotions a role of this depth and stature calls for just do not get reflected on his face. He looks out of his depth very often.

The scene you have cited is a classic example of this. I think he was supposed to transition from angry determination in the beginning to pleading with her to abandon her escape plan, ending up, when his consciousness was fading, to the desire to cling to her hand for its own sake. But all this never came through. It might sound harsh, but he looked like a dying duck.

Well, as there is clearly nothing to be done about it now, let us hope he improves. As I wrote earlier, the show will flourish or fail depending on how the viewers, who would still be remembering Aham's magisterial Karna, take to this one.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: kaku17
Sorry to barge in but I wholeheartedly agree with Shyamala auntie wrt Aham Sharma. . He was phenomenal as "Karna" in MB... he was subtle but always on point... That guy literally emotes with his eyes. ..Aham Sharma's "Karn" is bae 😳
Ashim Gulati needs to pull up his socks... Sometimes his expressions confuse me especially when he was poisoned and held Urvi's hand... I couldn't understand what he was trying to convey...was it pain on being poisoned (ideally should be not he being Kshatriya, can endure pain which gave him away in front of his guru Parshuram) or was he trying to implore Urvi to understand his pov or was it simply a love sick expression...

Edited by sashashyam - 6 years ago

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kaku17

@kaku17

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

#33

Word Shyamala auntie... Karn, as a character is very complex and it required an actor of calibre who could bring it to the fore without being ott... I've got nothing against Ashim n I'm sure he's working hard but somehow it's not getting translated on screen, though he looks cute as Karn...

Even Gautam Rhode did a great job as Karn in Sony TV's version, though there were lot of creative liberties taken and the most glaring one was Radha maa not treating Karn well in the beginning... I simply lost interest...

I might be wrong but I firmly believe that Mahabharata war happened only because of 3 people... Vasudev (he was the master player), Draupadi and most importantly Karn... If Karn got his due before Duryodhan stepped in, if Draupadi chose Karn instead of Arjun (Karn had all the qualities of pandavs in him in a roundabout manner) , Then she would not have been humiliated in the dyut sabha which sowed the seeds of revenge (rightly so) then MB wouldn't have happened... Draupadi's humiliation was the catalyst for the pandavs (though they still tried for peace) and Duryodhan's utmost faith in Karn's ability was the main reason for MB

I feel he was better than Arjun in every aspect. . The only downside and a very big one was that he sided with adharm which ultimately led to his downfall .. Karn was always doomed...

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

#34

I agree with almost all that you have written here, my dear Kaku. Bar one thing, that Karna was better than Arjuna in almost everything.

See,we have no way of knowing this, for Arjuna, insofar as I know, is not as well developed as a character as Karna is. He is, for the most part, more of an image, of the shreshtatam dhanurdhar, than a person. He really comes alive only when he throws down his weapons and refuses to fight, only to be convinced by Lord Krishna.

This apart, it is like the MJ Akbar case which is rocking India today. It counts for nothing how wonderful a writer he was, how capable as an editor, none of all his professional accomplishments count when placed in the balance in front of the accounts of harassment and worse by more than 20 women. Similarly, no matter how great Karna was in other respects, his support of adharma at every crucial moment negates all his other accomplishments.

Here, he is being shown as a near saint. And the casting is wrong. Let us see how this goes.

I watched Suryaputra Karna for a week and then quit.

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: kaku17
Word Shyamala auntie... Karn, as a character is very complex and it required an actor of calibre who could bring it to the fore without being ott... I've got nothing against Ashim n I'm sure he's working hard but somehow it's not getting translated on screen, though he looks cute as Karn...

Even Gautam Rhode did a great job as Karn in Sony TV's version, though there were lot of creative liberties taken and the most glaring one was Radha maa not treating Karn well in the beginning... I simply lost interest...

I might be wrong but I firmly believe that Mahabharata war happened only because of 3 people... Vasudev (he was the master player), Draupadi and most importantly Karn... If Karn got his due before Duryodhan stepped in, if Draupadi chose Karn instead of Arjun (Karn had all the qualities of pandavs in him in a roundabout manner) , Then she would not have been humiliated in the dyut sabha which sowed the seeds of revenge (rightly so) then MB wouldn't have happened... Draupadi's humiliation was the catalyst for the pandavs (though they still tried for peace) and Duryodhan's utmost faith in Karn's ability was the main reason for MB

I feel he was better than Arjun in every aspect. . The only downside and a very big one was that he sided with adharm which ultimately led to his downfall .. Karn was always doomed...

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sashashyam

@sashashyam

Sparkler

+ 3

Posted: 6 years ago

#35

My dear Sabita,

Thank you so much for your concern. But there is no cure for RA, nor even permanent alleviation. Only brief remissions, and then it is back in full force! It affects my hands first, which is why I cannot do anything like as much as I would like to in this or any other forum. But I have got used to it in the last three plus years, and I am grateful for the remissions.

I would recommend Vikram Betaal only if you are really fond of Aham Sharma. He is being wasted there, as he does not have much acting to do. Ditto for the other two good actors, Makarand Deshpande as the Betaal and Sooraj Thapar as the villain Bhadrakaal. I watch it because of nostalgia for one of my childhood favourites, and for Aham Sharma.

Ponnaruvi is such a beautiful and meaningful name, not like this Uruvi!

Neengal rendu perum Tamizh enru therindu romba santhosham. Enakku koncham koncham Malayalam theriyum. Athile Samskrutam jaasti.

I am very pleased to see that this thread has been so successful, my dear. Keep it up, and I will always be there to comment on your threads. I was thinking of doing a standalone post on the dramatis personae of this show, but I could not manage it with the pain. Maybe tomorrow if things improve. I just wanted to respond to this post of yours before I lost track of it. There are too many threads here, and one cannot remember what is what!

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: gemini54
Dear aunty
Hope you feel better soon. I have not watched any of the show mentioned here and if you recommending Betal I may watch it. I like the way Karna looks and his philosophies depicted in this show but you are right hope he has acting caliber that suits the character and maybe he will display them as the show progresses. For now I am only impressed by Uruvi and Duryodhan. On a side note my mother said Uruvi was mentioned as Ponnaruvi in a Tamil novel as Karnas wife.

Ammmam naanum Tamizh thaan with Malayalam mixed in.
I for one was not impressed with Friday's episode will write a bit in the other thread.
I hope u feel better

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cts22

@cts22

Navigator

+ 2

Posted: 6 years ago

#36

I agree with Shyamala Auntie . As much as Karna was noble, loyal and a daanveer , the fact remains he sided with Duryodhana in most of his wrongdoings and punished for it.

In the epic Karna was one of the few who lived his life on his own terms, though rejected by his birth mother.

He grew up in a very loving family with parents and siblings who loved and cared for him. He had wives and children who loved him, the fact that his sons fought in the war along side him proves that.

Karna was ambitious, wanted to be a warrior and became one, never hesitating to use darker or incorrect methods to reach there. He became a king was close friends with a crown king, acquired and conquered kingdoms.

The most noble things that he did were 1) chose to give his kavach and kundals knowing fully well it would not help him.

2) Choosing to side with Duryodhan not only as a loyal friend to him, but as a redemption for the wrongs that he had committed

3) He chose the way he wanted to die, in a battle field to be killed by one of the best warriors.

4) He got closure on the mystery of his birth, he held no grudges against Kunti and forgave her, was happy that his younger brother would win the war and become king. He also had closure with Bheeshm who he had a grudging respect but was always at loggerheads.

I love the last conversation and the peace that they make with each other after Bheeshma falls.

In spite of everything that happened to him he fought and found his own way to live and die, not many people got that opportunity in the epic

Karna was a noble, arrogant, sharp, razor tongued person and wish CVS would project.

Ashim is good looking and in some scenes he is damn good, but he has to work a lot harder as the previous actors who portrayed were amazing be it Pankaj Dheer or Aham Sharna.

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riti4u

@riti4u

Stunner

+ 7

Posted: 6 years ago

#37

@Shymala Aunty - I think it would be difficult to categorize what karna has done on adharm side. Well definition of dharm depends on person interpretation of it too..and importance of what virtue he holds most important in his life..We should not forget the fact that Karna would have it so easy if he was actually on adharm side when Krishna offered him to own up hastinapur throne..but he chose not to simply coz he wanted Yudi to become King..as in original translation if I recall he admits to seeing a dream where he sees..yudhistir as king and all this being a sacrifice for greater good.. Yes he made mistakes ,some of it were unpardonable..and yes it took him towards an end.. which was tragic.. We should not look things as black and white because definitely they are not so clear always..

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 6 years ago

#38

Originally posted by: riti4u
@Shymala Aunty - I think it would be difficult to categorize what karna has done on adharm side. Well definition of dharm depends on person interpretation of it too..and importance of what virtue he holds most important in his life..We should not forget the fact that Karna would have it so easy if he was actually on adharm side when Krishna offered him to own up hastinapur throne..but he chose not to simply coz he wanted Yudi to become King..as in original translation if I recall he admits to seeing a dream where he sees..yudhistir as king and all this being a sacrifice for greater good.. Yes he made mistakes ,some of it were unpardonable..and yes it took him towards an end.. which was tragic.. We should not look things as black and white because definitely they are not so clear always..

As far as my knowledge goes, none is left that we didn't discuss!

Dharma is perhaps the most baffling word, next to RITA, I came across in Sanskrit. Everyone uses it quite often. There is no other word that is repeated so much in Mahabharata. But no one says what does it mean specifically. AFAIK, the first time usage of this word is in Purusha Sukta of Rig Veda. There, right after explaining the evolution of universe, it says 'and the sages followed Dharma'! But what is that dharma? There are no explanations. It is not mathematics to assume the unknown as X, it is life. So we can't pinpoint on something that no one knows.

Yudhishthira says he would play dice because it was his dharma. How do any of us know what was his Dharma? Today's right and wrong is mainly resulted from 'Brahmana dharma', we have lost any work related to 'Kshatriya dharma'. There are two characters in Mahabharata, who ask why no one protects Dharma! One is Karna and the other is Vyasa himself. Vyasa worried that no one protected this 'dharma', even after writing the entire story. That DOES mean something.

In Mahabharata, there are many retellings of the same event, and if we see the story and characters as a whole, rather than from the myopic perspective of a certain single character, all these variables collectively prove more supportive to Kauravas than Pandavas. We can't malign everyone, including the poor Kuru subjects and their nationalism, for just one person. It is in fact quite easy to prove that no insult of nobody happened. On the contrary, it is not at all easy to disprove that nobody lied about being insulted. What does that make nobody, I don't know! Don't ask me!

I agree that a crime is a crime no matter what, but a more serious crime is making such allegations on people who didn't do it. Bad people and LIARS are everywhere, they are not dedicated to a particular sect.

I am not saying this because I like a certain or I don't like another. I LOVE to stand at the right place, even if my heart tells otherwise. I don't like Duryodhana, I also don't like Yudhishthira. But I WILL support them if they are questioned for the wrong reasons, if ANYONE is questioned for the wrong reason. [Yudhi fans should party at this, given how I treated him a few years ago.😆]

As a human, I always give more value to integrity than emotions. Sometimes, it is difficult for me, to mercilessly uproot my beliefs and plant a new one, but no growth has ever come without pain. When a bud flowers, the bud is forever lost, but a more beautiful being is born. It takes time, but not impossible for anyone who wish to grow. Those who would like to stay wherever they are, it is their choice.

Edited by Brahmaputra - 6 years ago

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gemini54

@gemini54

Voyager

Posted: 6 years ago

#39

@jamy I have no words for your outstanding post other than say take a Bow
Especially for these below
As a human, I always give more value to integrity than emotions. Sometimes, it is difficult for me, to mercilessly uproot my beliefs and plant a new one, but no growth has ever come without pain. When a bud flowers, the bud is forever lost, but a more beautiful being is born. It takes time, but not impossible for anyone who wish to grow. Those who would like to stay wherever they are, it is their choice.

I have not read much writing in Sanskrit so may not be able to contribute to yourwriting effectively but the essence is Right versus Wrong.
Who makes the rules. In the Dice match Yudhistra pawned his wife was she his property ?. The game of dice was between Yudhistra and Duryodhan then why was Shakuni playing in Duryodhan behalf?
Dhritirashra was the first born and the rightful heir to the king but he was thought not fit because of his blindness a disability but did not Pandu have an ailment too.
The children the Pandavas were born of gods not Pandus but Yudhistra was still considered the rightful heir. So who makes these so called rules of right and wrong and is there a clear demarcation between right or wrong or is it open to interpretation?
Thoughts to ponder.
I want to thank you again for the brilliant piece of writing

Edited by gemini54 - 6 years ago

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Brahmaputra

@Brahmaputra

Sparkler

+ 2

Posted: 6 years ago

#40

Originally posted by: gemini54
@jamy I have no words for your outstanding post other than say take a Bow
Especially for these below
As a human, I always give more value to integrity than emotions. Sometimes, it is difficult for me, to mercilessly uproot my beliefs and plant a new one, but no growth has ever come without pain. When a bud flowers, the bud is forever lost, but a more beautiful being is born. It takes time, but not impossible for anyone who wish to grow. Those who would like to stay wherever they are, it is their choice.

I have not read much writing in Sanskrit so may not be able to contribute to yourwriting effectively but the essence is Right versus Wrong.
Who makes the rules. In the Dice match Yudhistra pawned his wife was she his property ?. The game of dice was between Yudhistra and Duryodhan then why was Shakuni playing in Duryodhan behalf?
Dhritirashra was the first born and the rightful heir to the king but he was thought not fit because of his blindness a disability but did not Pandu have an ailment too.
The children the Pandavas were born of gods not Pandus but Yudhistra was still considered the rightful heir. So who makes these so called rules of right and wrong and is there a clear demarcation between right or wrong or is it open to interpretation?
Thoughts to ponder.
I want to thank you again for the brilliant piece of writing

Thanks a lot Gemini, though it is a bit late.😆 I saw you mentioning my name in your main post, but forgot it. Sorry.

I don't have any extensive knowledge in Sanskrit. I learnt a little bit when I was a child; never thought of going beyond it thereafter. I still need grammar books and dictionaries to see if my assumptions are correct.

One thing reading Mahabharata taught me was its events were the product of everyone, not just one person. So we can't point our fingers at anyone. Some people may be wrong by today's standards, some, may not. Problems arise when you consider today's standards for only one. We can't judge them, we can't say this one is wrong, that one is right. I used to do that; I also am guilty of that mistake. But we also can correct our mistakes. These are just POVs, not a person that you murdered.

As Friedrich Nietzsche said, 'You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.'

Well, we are not allowed to discuss the original epic in main forum. There is a separate thread for that. There you will find many enlightened members who will always be happy to help you, if you're interested in that.

Once again, thanks a lot for your appreciation.😊

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