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Priya_Vrisha

@Priya_Vrisha

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#111

Originally posted by: MahanalayakKarn

Nope. My quotes on Krishna promising to KILL KARNA are from Vana Parva and Udyoga Parva PRIOR to the offer. If you followe the link you would see.

As for Panchali going with Karna, you should read what she said when Yudhishtira started weeping and wailing knowing the truth about Karna. Both she and Bhima told Yudhishtira to go to hell 😆. Paraphrasing, of course.

Also, Karna was NOT the eldest Pandava. 1) for him to be considered that, Pandu had to accept him. PANDU lists the rules of niyog in Adhi Parva. Even if he did accept him, once there was a sanctioned child, ie Yudhishtira, Karna would be behind him. 2) Bheeshma says Karna would have no right to empire even if he switched. It is there in Anushasana Parva.

Further, even if Karna was accepted as eldest brother, Panchali still couldn't marry or have sex (your words, not mine) with him. Because as Arjuna says prior to the marriage and as MANU SMRITI states, a younger brother could marry older brother's wife, but not the reverse. For an older brother, the younger sister-in-law would be a DAUGHTER. If Karna was accepted as eldest Pandava, Panchali would be akin to his daughter.

Re: Kunti and Yudhishtira. Nope, neither made the decision about polyandry. Vyasa talks to them about it. It wasn't the Pandavas' idea. Or Kunti's. Afterward, ARJUNA makes the verbal statement. Only HE had the right. Krishna had absolutely no right.

Karna knew all this. He was man of the times. He was sharp enough to see Krishna's trickery.

I can provide the links to all of the above if anyone asks. Since people are clearly not reading, I won't take the trouble unless requested.

PriyaVrish, may I suggest reading KMG at least instead of going by what the troll says? He is making up stories. What he's saying is very diff from what the text says. Either he is ignorant and trying to make up for the gaps in his knowledge, or he has serious issues. Either way, he is to be pitied.

@Mahanalayak

No need to advise me to Read KMG . I have already read it years ago. I have read BORI CE in Sanskrit and it's translation by Bibek Debroy.

I m telling my views , my interpretation and you are telling yours. Now, If my views are matching with anyone else then nothing is wrong in it.

I Agree Arjuna said that Elder brother shouldn't marry younger brother's Wife you are blaming me for ignoring that line But you are aslo ignoring other important points mentioned below.

Satyvati asked Bhishma to beget sons to Ambika and Ambalika. My question is wasn't Bhishma elder brother of Vichitravurya ?

And Bhishma denied it saying he will follow his oath and, he didn't say that Elder brother can't beget son to Wife of Younger brother.

Here is the quote from

Adi Parva : Chapter - 97

O supreme among those who hold up dharma! Therefore, I am depending on you. I will ask

you to perform an act. When you have heard it, please do it. O bull among men! My valorous

son was your brother and you loved him a lot. He has ascended to heaven, though but a

child. Your brother's queens are the fortunate daughters of the king of Kashi and they possess

youth and beauty. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! They yearn for sons. O immensely

fortunate one! Therefore, so that the lineage continues, beget offspring on them. At my

request, perform this act of dharma. Instate yourself on the throne and rule over the kingdom

of the Bharatas. In accordance with dharma, take a wife and do not immerse your ancestors

in hell. The conqueror of enemies was thus addressed by his mother and his friends.

But the one who followed dharma replied in accordance with dharma. "O mother! What

you have said is certainly sanctioned by supreme dharma. But for the sake of the kingdom,

you know about the vow I have taken about not having offspring. O Satyavati! You also know

about the price that had to be paid for you and about the occurrence thereafter. I will again

repeat the truthful pledge that I then took. I can give up the three worlds. I can also renounce

the kingdom of the gods, or anything that is greater than both of these. But I can never go

back on the truth.

No where it os written that Bhishma refused because he was Elder brother of Vichitravurya.

Wasn't BuishBh Also welversed of knowledge of Vedas.

Dear Sis, Mahabharata is full of contradictory statements. Tha's why everyone interprets it in own way .

Now if we talk about whether Karna was eldest Pandva or not ?

Pandu hinhims Told to Kunti who can be Heir ?

Adi parva : Chapter - 111

O Pritha! The religious texts speak of

six kinds of sons who are both heirs and relatives and six kinds of sons who are neither heirs,

nor relatives. Listenthe son born from one's own self, the son presented, the son purchased,

the son born from one's widow, the son born through one's wife before marriage and the son

born through a loose wife.

KARNA WAS SON BORN THROUGH WIFE BEFORE MARRIAGE.

And yes , You haven't Countered my Point of Indra using Apsaras against Rishis

Here is a sample quote where Indra sent Apsaras to safeguard his Throne from Trishira and firstly he tried to seduce Trishira and when he couldn't be distracted, Indra killed Innocent weponless Trishira using Vajra

Udyog Parva : Chapter - 9

He was an

ascetic, mild and self-controlled. He was engaged in dharma and austerities. O destroyer of

enemies! His austerities were so great and terrible that they were extremely difficult to

accomplish. Having witnessed his austerities, valour, truthfulness, Shakra was depressed that

he might become Indra.65 How can one get him addicted to desire, so that he does not

torment through these great austerities? If Trishira continues to grow, he will swallow up the

three worlds.'66 O bull among the Bharata lineage! That intelligent one thought about this in

many ways. He then instructed the apsaras to seduce Tvashtra's son. Go quickly, without any

delay. Seduce Trishira and get him addicted to the pleasures of desire. O ones with the

beautiful hips! Wear the garments of love. Adopt a charming demeanour. O fortunate ones!

Tempt him and pacify my fear. O one with the beautiful limbs! I feel ill. I do not feel like

myself. O ladies! Swiftly take away my extremely terrible fear.' The apsaras replied, O

Shakra! O destroyer of Bala!67 We will make endeavours to seduce him, so that you have

nothing to fear. That treasure among ascetics seems to burn everything down with his eyes. O

god! We will go together and try to seduce him. We will try to bring him under our control

and remove your fear.' Being instructed by Indra, they went to Trishira. There, the ones with

the beautiful limbs adopted all kinds of allurements to seduce him. They showed their dances.

They exhibited the beauty of their limbs. But having seen this, the great ascetic was not

perturbed. He was in control of his senses and was as calm as the full ocean. They made

supreme efforts and returned to Shakra. All of them joined their hands in salutation and told

the king of the gods, O lord! This one is extremely difficult to distract. It is impossible to

sway him from his firmness. O immensely fortunate one! Do what must be done hereafter.

My Questions

- Was Indra father of Apsaras ?

- was Indra Brother of Apsaras ?

- Was Indra Husband of Apsaras ?

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1123225

Hibernated

Posted: 6 years ago

#112

Buddy Priya 😆 And also RU (the comments about not reading etc are for Priya-Vrish)

5th in line in that list means Karna came behind all 5 Pandavas as heir. He could never be king unless all 5 Pandavas AND their progeny died. Like Prince Harry is now 6th in line to the throne in spite of being Prince Charles's son.

Also, kaneena son had to be accepted by the husband to be considered son. Pandu never accepted Karn.

Manu Smriti didn't come later. It came earlier, predating the vedas. Because what Pandu says about Niyog and what Arjuna says about rules of marriage are quotes from Manu Smriti

And Indra was supposed to be a demigod. Not a human. The societal rules were meant for humans. Ergo, Karna had no chance at marrying or having sex with Panchali once Yudhishtira married her.

Now, once Panchali was married, she was wife. Vyasa said it himself when he talks to Drupad. Btw, there was no 1 year rule like you said. The only rule was that when she was with one, others shouldn't bother her.

Bheeshma in Anushasana Parva wasn't talking about himself refusing to do niyog. He was talking about who had the right to the throne, reassuring Yudhishtira even if Karna were alive, he couldn't be king.

Btw, Niyog is not the same thing as marriage or sex. Niyog is surrogacy. The rules for that were different. Bheeshma didnt have to refuse for that reason.

KARNA had no chance of being king or being Mr. Panchali.

Secondly, even after Arjuna handed her over , Drupad and Dhrishtadyumna refused to let it happen. Vyasa had to intervene, quoting rules. As far as Karna was concerned, Krishna had absolutely no right to make that offer. Not only that, Panchali had already stated in open court she would not listen to Pandavas or Krishna. They all knew it wasn't happening.😆

Re: your claim of having read KMG and CE. Let's just say it shatters in the face of evidence.

1) the quotes I gave you of Krishna promising to kill Karna qere from Vana Parva and Udyoga Parva, before the offer. Even an Amar Chitra Katha level reader would've known that.

2) you don't seem to have known that niyog and marriage/sex are diff things

3) you don't seem to have known that Arjuna was the one who made the offer to share. You thought it was Yudhishtira and Kunti. In fact, it was actually Vyasa's idea.

4) You actually brought up the TV show favorite, the one-year rule, which wasn't there.

Edited by MahanalayakKarn - 6 years ago

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#113

Originally posted by: MahanalayakKarn
Buddy Priya 😆

5th in line in that list means Karna came behind all 5 Pandavas as heir. He could never be king unless all 5 Pandavas AND their progeny died. Like Prince Harry is now 6th in line to the throne in spite of being Prince Charles's son.

Manu Smriti didn't come later. It came earlier, predating the vedas. Because what Pandu says about Niyog and what Arjuna says about rules of marriage are quotes from Manu Smriti

And Indra was supposed to be a demigod. Not a human. The societal rules were meant for humans. Ergo, Karna had no chance at marrying or having sex with Panchali once Yudhishtira married her.

Now, once Panchali was married, she was wife. Vyasa said it himself when he talks to Drupad. Btw, there was no 1 year rule like you said. The only rule was that when she was with one, others shouldn't bother her.

Bheeshma in Anushasana Parva wasn't talking about himself refusing to do niyog. He was talking about who had the right to the throne, reassuring Yudhishtira even if Karna were alive, he couldn't be king.

Btw, Niyog is not the same thing as marriage or sex. Niyog is surrogacy. The rules for that were different. Bheeshma didnt have to refuse for that reason.

KARNA had no chance of being king or being Mr. Panchali.

Secondly, even after Arjuna handed her over , Drupad and Dhrishtadyumna refused to let it happen. Vyasa had to intervene, quoting rules. As far as Karna was concerned, Krishna had absolutely no right to make that offer. Not only that, Panchali had already stated in open court she would not listen to Pandavas or Krishna. They all knew it wasn't happening.😆

Re: your claim of having read KMG and CE. Let's just say it shatters in the face of evidence.

1) the quotes I gave you of Krishna promising to kill Karna qere from Vana Parva and Udyoga Parva, before the offer. Even an Amar Chitra Katha level reader would've known that.

2) you don't seem to have known that niyog and marriage/sex are diff things

3) you don't seem to have known that Arjuna was the one who made the offer to share. You thought it was Yudhishtira and Kunti. In fact, it was actually Vyasa's idea.

4) You actually brought up the TV show favorite, the one-year rule, which wasn't there.

I don't think you should bother buddy. They're never going to pay any attention to facts.

Regarding the sharing proposed by Arjuna- In Debroy's translation

He first says to Yudhishtira that you should marry her ''first' but later says that 'Vrikodara, I and the twins think the lady should be yours."

It is stated that Yudhishtira feared conflict arising between the brothers and hence ordered that they shall all marry her .So this is strictly my opinion but I think the logical sequene of events would be that Arjuna asked Yudi to marry her but Yudi thinks it'll cause conflict and hence proposes that they should all marry her.

If Arjuna had himself proposed the common marraige why would Yudi fear conflict and suggest it again? You're free to disagree but that's just something I think

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SweetRogue

@SweetRogue

Explorer

Posted: 6 years ago

#114

Later too, it is Yudhishtira who cites examples to Draupadi and Kunti who defends him. You're right about one thing though Arjuna could've prevented the whole thing if he took a stand. He had the legal 'right' on Draupadi at the time.

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1123225

Hibernated

Posted: 6 years ago

#115

Yes. And that's why I never get why people talk about the great Arjuna Panchali love story. There was none. It was a political arrangement proposed by Vyasa. Arjuna went there specifically to win her for Yudhishtira ao they could get allies.

Granted, once they saw her, there was lust. Vyasa says it. She was a beautiful woman. Acc to the poet, the most beautiful one around. Plus, she was educated and accomplished as per the description.

But Arjuna's priority was his family. And why not? He'd just met Panchali.

But the reason behind the marriage was political. Not romance. Not lust.

Edited by MahanalayakKarn - 6 years ago

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Priya_Vrisha

@Priya_Vrisha

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#116

#Mahanalayk

miss A**ta.

Pandu mentioned 6 kinds of heir and its not by order of preference. If two heirs have rights then elder is prefered and its karna

Pandu doesnt says about niyoga. Infact the word 'niyoga' doesnt exist in entire passage. Kunti was talking about normal human relationship not niyog. If you have any proof that kunti followed niyoga then plz quote it

Karna had chance to marry draupadi just like bhishma had chance to have intercourse with ambika

Bhishma refused for his vow but if he didnt vowed then he could have accepted ambika

Yes true. Just like arjun need confirmation by vyass in same way krishna needed comfirmation by vyass and draupadi's father. Problem is that krishna offered draupadi to karna for sexual intercourse just like kunti offered her. just like kunti managed to convice her decision krishna would have convinced all for his decision. Who knows about panchali's decision? but by krishna'a side it was clear that he wanted to offer draupadi to karna and offer was very much valid.

Again same problem here. There was no promise by krishna to kill karna

yes niyoga and marriage is different but you failed to provide proof that kunti was talking about niyoga. It was statement for all women married unmarried all.

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1123225

Hibernated

Posted: 6 years ago

#117

😆

Here you go.

You claim to have read KMG and CE. But just below the lines you quoted are mentions of how it is for children and guess what? Pandu mentions Manu!

Forget the whole text, you haven't even read that one part.😆

. O Pritha, listen to me. They are: 1st, the son begotten by one's own self upon his wedded wife; 2nd, the son begotten upon one's wife by an accomplished person from motives of kindness; 3rd, the son begotten upon one's wife by a person for pecuniary consideration; 4th, the son begotten upon the wife after the husband's death; 5th, the maiden-born son; 6th, the son born of an unchaste wife; 7th, the son given; 8th, the son bought for a consideration; 9th, the son self-given; 10th, the son received with a pregnant bride; 11th, the brother's son; and 12th, the son begotten upon a wife of lower caste. On failure of offspring of a prior class, the mother should desire to have offspring of the next class. In times of distress, men solicit offspring from accomplished younger brothers. The self-born Manu hath said that men failing to have legitimate offspring of their own may have offspring begotten upon their wives by others, for sons confer the highest religious merit.

------

Nope. Arjuna didn't need confirmation by Vyasa. Only Arjuna had the right to make that decision. Vyasa supported that decisoon with Drupad. Yudhishtira and Kunti didn't make that decision. ARJUNA did, because only he had the right.

Same way, Krishna had no legal standing to make the offer.

------

Neither empire nor the woman could ever belong to Karna.😆

------

Ooh, and one more...

The same Manu Smriti Pandu quotes also says the man has actually to be childless to send the wife for Niyog. All the Pandavas had children.

So no, niyog and marriage are 2 very diff things.

Karna didn't qualify for either.

------

Ignorance is ok. It can be rectified. Lying about it is not. It's sort of like lying on your resume.

Edited by MahanalayakKarn - 6 years ago

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Priya_Vrisha

@Priya_Vrisha

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#118

ROFL

Omg.

Fifth son Doesn't mean that he would be Heir after death of All Pandvas.

PANDU WAS TELLING TYPES KF SONS AND NOT RANKING OF SON WHO HAS FIRST RIGHT OR WHO HAS SECOND RIGHT

KUNTI STARTED FROM BIRTH OF KARNA 5TH KIND OF SON HENCE NEXT ORDER IS 6TH NOT 2ND BECAUSE NO REVERSE RULE. INFACT BY YOUR LOGIC DURYODHAN WAS REAL HEIR AS PER KIND-1 SON STILL PANDAVAS BEGGED HIS KINGDOM? AND IF YOU TALK ABOUT AGE THAT YUDHISTIRA WAS ELDER TO DURYODHAN THEN SO WAS KARNA ELDER TO YUDHISTIRA

ORDER WISE

DURYODHAN

YUDHISTIRA

KARNA

AGE WISE

KARNA

YUDHISTIRA

DURYODHANA

YUDHISTIRA IS NOWHERE SO ACCEPT THAT PANDAVAS WERE NOT HEIR OR ACCEPT THAT KARNA WAS HEIR

Of you don't understand even simple English , Then it is not my fault

Pandu Included a Son born from maiden , And Karna was the same.

Now , be it marriage or be it Niyoga it has one thing in common i.e. Intercourse.

I didn't say that Karn will marry Draupadi. I said Krishna offered that in sixth period Draupadi will come to you.

Read quote carefully.

Udyog Parva : Chapter 138

Vasudeva said, O Radheya! You have served brahmanas who are learned in the Vedas.

Free of jealousy and attentively, you have asked them about the truth. O Karna! You know

the eternal teachings of the Vedas. You know about the sacred texts of dharma and their

subtleties. People who know about the sacred texts say that a son who is born to a maiden

before her marriage is as much of a son as one who is born from a father after marriage. O

Karna! You have been born in this fashion.1 According to dharma, you are Pandu's son.

According to the instructions of the sacred texts of dharma, come with me and you will

become a king. The Parthas are on your father's side and the Vrishnis are on your mother's

side. O bull among men! Know that both these sides are your own lineage. O son!2 Come with

me now and the Pandavas will recognize you as a Kounteya who has been born before

Yudhishthira. The five Pandavas will grasp your feet as brothers, together with the five sons

of Droupadi and Subhadra's unvanquished son.3 The kings and princes who have gathered

together in the cause of the Pandavas and all the Andhakas and Vrishnis will grasp your feet.

The kings, the wives of kings and the daughters of kings will bring gold, silver and earthen

vessels, herbs, all kinds of seeds, all kinds of gems and creepers for your anointment.4 At the

sixth point in time,5 Droupadi will have intercourse with you. Let the brahmanas who are

acquainted with the four Vedas consecrate you today, assisted by the priest of the Pandavas,6

the five Pandava brothers who are bulls among men, Droupadi's five sons, the Panchalas and

the Chedis. You will be seated on the skin of a tiger. I will myself instate you as king and the

lord of the earth. Kunti's son, King Yudhishthira, will be the heir apparent. Kunti's son,

Yudhishthira, rigid in his vows and with dharma in his soul, will ascend the chariot behind

you and hold a white umbrella.7 O Kounteya! The immensely strong Bhimasena will hold a

giant white umbrella above your head when you are consecrated. Your chariot will have

hundreds of bells that make a noise and will be strewn with the skins of tigers. It will be

yoked to white horses and Arjuna will drive it. Abhimanyu, Nakula, Sahadeva and Droupadi's

five sons will always be stationed near, for your instructions.

Here it is clearly Written that IN SIXTH PERIOD, DRAUPADI WILL HAVE INTERCOURSE WITH YOU.

And you are telling that Dhristadyumna and Druapa would not allow it, Then let me remind you, that Vyasa and Krishna are master in convincing people. Even though I call it fake Justifications , but fact is fact that they, especially Krishna can twist and use Dharma in his favour.

Well , It was win win situation for KKrishna.if Karna joined Pandvas, it was beneficial to him, and if Karna refise it, It was again in his favour, because it was going to weaken Karna.

Let me remind you how Krishna changed Arjuna's mind for killing Yudhisthra when Yudhisthra abused him and said to give away Gandiva to KrisnKr Of he is afraid of Karna. Arjuna was about to kill Yudhisthra due his vow ,But Krishna convinced him easily that if he will abuse Yudhisthra, It will be equal to killing him.

Edited by Priya_Vrisha - 6 years ago

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Priya_Vrisha

@Priya_Vrisha

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#119

Originally posted by: Chakka_Arjun
True true true

kunti did was niyoga and she was taking about niyoga. Yes yes NI YO GA

first I search on yahoo searchin searching. kunti niyoga searching. Omg no match found

again my friend google kunti doing niyoga. search found found

Again typed kunti niyoga on youture and mobile hanged karma bitch I found ramdev baba yoga but no kunti niyoga

It only exist is original ved vyass written arjun mahapuran adhay 3 invention of self interpretation by fanatics

Why you are trolling others. 🤣😛

Please let's debate with facts.

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Priya_Vrisha

@Priya_Vrisha

Beginner

Posted: 6 years ago

#120

Originally posted by: MahanalayakKarn
😆
Here you go.

You claim to have read KMG and CE. But just below the lines you quoted are mentions of how it is for children and guess what? Pandu mentions Manu!

Forget the whole text, you haven't even read that one part.😆

. O Pritha, listen to me. They are: 1st, the son begotten by one's own self upon his wedded wife; 2nd, the son begotten upon one's wife by an accomplished person from motives of kindness; 3rd, the son begotten upon one's wife by a person for pecuniary consideration; 4th, the son begotten upon the wife after the husband's death; 5th, the maiden-born son; 6th, the son born of an unchaste wife; 7th, the son given; 8th, the son bought for a consideration; 9th, the son self-given; 10th, the son received with a pregnant bride; 11th, the brother's son; and 12th, the son begotten upon a wife of lower caste. On failure of offspring of a prior class, the mother should desire to have offspring of the next class. In times of distress, men solicit offspring from accomplished younger brothers. The self-born Manu hath said that men failing to have legitimate offspring of their own may have offspring begotten upon their wives by others, for sons confer the highest religious merit.

------

Nope. Arjuna didn't need confirmation by Vyasa. Only Arjuna had the right to make that decision. Vyasa supported that decisoon with Drupad. Yudhishtira and Kunti didn't make that decision. ARJUNA did, because only he had the right.

Same way, Krishna had no legal standing to make the offer.

------

Neither empire nor the woman could ever belong to Karna.😆

------

Ooh, and one more...

The same Manu Smriti Pandu quotes also says the man has actually to be childless to send the wife for Niyog. All the Pandavas had children.

So no, niyog and marriage are 2 very diff things.

Karna didn't qualify for either.

------

Ignorance is ok. It can be rectified. Lying about it is not. It's sort of like lying on your resume.