B R Chopra portrayal of Karna with reference to KMG - Page 8

Originally posted by: Urmila11

Ok, here is the citation from Aadi parva (rangbhoomi):

"Vaisampayana continued, 'When the spectators, with eyes expanded with wonder, made way for that subjugator of hostile cities, Karna, that hero with his natural mail and face brightened with ear-rings, took up his bow and girded on his sword, and then entered the spacious lists, like a walking cliff. That far-famed destroyer of hostile hosts, the large-eyed Karna, was born of Pritha in her maidenhood. He was a portion of the hot-beamed Sun and his energy and prowess were like unto those of the lion, or the bull, or the leader of a herd of elephants. In splendour he resembled the Sun, in loveliness the Moon, and in energy the fire. Begotten by the Sun himself, he was tall in stature like a golden palm tree, and, endued with the vigour of youth, he was capable of slaying a lion. Handsome in features, he was possessed of countless accomplishments. The mighty-armed warrior, eyeing all around the arena, bowed indifferently to Drona and Kripa. And the entire assembly, motionless and with steadfast gaze, thought, 'Who is he?' And they became agitated in their curiosity to know the warrior.

And here is the citation from Shaanti parva (Narad's words):

Thus addressed by Rama, Karna came away, having duty taken his leave. Arriving then before Duryodhana, he informed him, saying, 'I have mastered all weapons!'"

Narada said, 'Having thus obtained weapons from him of Bhrigu's race, Karna began to pass his days in great joy, in the company of Duryodhana, O bull of Bharata's race!

Now please try to think this. Is Narad lying here? Lord Krishna is also lying? And whatever Duryodhan said in rangbhoomi was truth only? 😲 Sorry, I can't take every words uttered by Duryodhan as Ved vakya 🤢 He was not always truthful like Yudhishthir so I can't see any reason why he can't lie to satisfy his selfishness. I think the whole Karna Duryodhan friendship in front of everyone in rangbhoomi was nothing but a pure pre-planned drama. See the Shaati parva citation, Narad said that Karna met Duryodhan just after he returned from Parshuram, & spent his days with him. What does that mean? I think then Duryodhan wanted a way to show everyone that Arjun was inferior to Karna (as it was necessary for his claim on HP throne where Arjun's valor & Bhim's power were his main problem), so he set this plan with Karna that he should be present at rangbhoomi just after Arjun completes his tasks. See what a dramatic timing Karna used to enter, I do not think it was accidental.

Now the another question is: why was everyone surprised to see Karna, right? My answer is: he studied in Dron & Krip's Gurukul at childhood. Then he left Gurukul to visit Parshuram. After a long years Dron, Krip & Pandavas met him so could not recognize as an adult. But Duryodhan definitely recognized him as he met Karna just few days before, but pretended like he did not. Because he had to establish a friendship drama at that public place. And yes, Pandavas did not know him as a suta putra, this shows how Karna suppressed his identity in Gurukul. Dron probably knew his caste (so he denied to give Brahmastra), Duryodhan as well, but probably he did not talk much with enemy Pandavas out of hatred so how could they know what was his caste?

This whole theory of yours is just a speculaition nothing else, 'pre-planned drama' for gods sake really?, this speculation is faulty, why wouldnt Duryodhana adress Karna if he knew him?, couldn't he just say ' Here is my friend Karna who is superior to Arjuna in warfare', no Drama needed, your 'theory' does not change the fact that everybody inlcuding Duryodhana was surprised to see Karna and nobody knew him at the time Rangbhoomi.

Originally posted by: Urmila11

Ok, here is the citation from Aadi parva (rangbhoomi):

"Vaisampayana continued, 'When the spectators, with eyes expanded with wonder, made way for that subjugator of hostile cities, Karna, that hero with his natural mail and face brightened with ear-rings, took up his bow and girded on his sword, and then entered the spacious lists, like a walking cliff. That far-famed destroyer of hostile hosts, the large-eyed Karna, was born of Pritha in her maidenhood. He was a portion of the hot-beamed Sun and his energy and prowess were like unto those of the lion, or the bull, or the leader of a herd of elephants. In splendour he resembled the Sun, in loveliness the Moon, and in energy the fire. Begotten by the Sun himself, he was tall in stature like a golden palm tree, and, endued with the vigour of youth, he was capable of slaying a lion. Handsome in features, he was possessed of countless accomplishments. The mighty-armed warrior, eyeing all around the arena, bowed indifferently to Drona and Kripa. And the entire assembly, motionless and with steadfast gaze, thought, 'Who is he?' And they became agitated in their curiosity to know the warrior.

And here is the citation from Shaanti parva (Narad's words):

Thus addressed by Rama, Karna came away, having duty taken his leave. Arriving then before Duryodhana, he informed him, saying, 'I have mastered all weapons!'"

Narada said, 'Having thus obtained weapons from him of Bhrigu's race, Karna began to pass his days in great joy, in the company of Duryodhana, O bull of Bharata's race!

Now please try to think this. Is Narad lying here? Lord Krishna is also lying? And whatever Duryodhan said in rangbhoomi was truth only? 😲 Sorry, I can't take every words uttered by Duryodhan as Ved vakya 🤢 He was not always truthful like Yudhishthir so I can't see any reason why he can't lie to satisfy his selfishness. I think the whole Karna Duryodhan friendship in front of everyone in rangbhoomi was nothing but a pure pre-planned drama. See the Shaati parva citation, Narad said that Karna met Duryodhan just after he returned from Parshuram, & spent his days with him. What does that mean? I think then Duryodhan wanted a way to show everyone that Arjun was inferior to Karna (as it was necessary for his claim on HP throne where Arjun's valor & Bhim's power were his main problem), so he set this plan with Karna that he should be present at rangbhoomi just after Arjun completes his tasks. See what a dramatic timing Karna used to enter, I do not think it was accidental.

Now the another question is: why was everyone surprised to see Karna, right? My answer is: he studied in Dron & Krip's Gurukul at childhood. Then he left Gurukul to visit Parshuram. After a long years Dron, Krip & Pandavas met him so could not recognize as an adult. But Duryodhan definitely recognized him as he met Karna just few days before, but pretended like he did not. Because he had to establish a friendship drama at that public place. And yes, Pandavas did not know him as a suta putra, this shows how Karna suppressed his identity in Gurukul. Dron probably knew his caste (so he denied to give Brahmastra), Duryodhan as well, but probably he did not talk much with enemy Pandavas out of hatred so how could they know what was his caste?

first let me clarify that if the intention behind the claims that karna and dury were friends from before the rangbhomi is too prove that dury just befriended karna at that time because he wanted some one who can compete with arjuna i agree with that statement.I mean i agree that dury's intention when befriending karna weren't noble

regarding other things no one is lying

1)Krishna ji isnt lying that is why i said if we believe krishna ji's words then definitely karna was involved in some incident of Bhima's poisoning but it wasn't the childhood vasuki incident since bhima swallowed the poison

2)Narada isnt lying as well but again one needs to read the full citation rather than parts.Here again narada is telling karan's full life history without any mention of what happene when.Infact rangbhoomi incident isn't ,mentioned at all so there is no way to determine what you have stated happened after or before the rangbhoomi.Infact right after this citation dury's abdcution of kasi princess and karan's aid in that is mentioned did that also happen before rangbhoomi?I dont think so so reading full citation is always helpful

3)Regarding dury lying dury rangbhoomi its possible but what about the reaction of other's Wouldnt other's know dury is lying if karna and dury's assciation has been since childhood whouldnt bhima recognize him

so yes like you said there was a clear long break in karna an dury's association after gururkul and they did met during gurukul but they weren't friends

and not sure how we can say that bhima didnt know who karna was because karna suppressed his identity this is pure conjecture is there no citation to prove this.i dont think so it could merely be because like you said he came after many years and bhima idnt know him at all which proves karan's association with kauaravs or pandavas wasn't that strong or long during gururkul

again dury meeting karna before rangbhoomi is a pure conjecture there is no citation that proves this at all.Ved vyas doesn't indicate about such a meeting at all

Sabhyata,

Since you have the Debroy's CE, can you post the translation for verses 46 and 47 from chapter 122 ?

Originally posted by: varaali

Sabhyata,

Since you have the Debroy's CE, can you post the translation for verses 46 and 47 from chapter 122 ?

which parva will have these verses

sorry i am very bad at finding the verses but if you confirm the parva i will be easier for me to find it

Adi Parva .


Within the Adi Parva, in the sub Parva called the Sambhava Parva.

Towards the end of the Sambhava Parva. In fact, after one more adhyaya, the jatugrihadaha Parva starts (according to CE, not KMG)

I thought Prof Debroy has also given the relevant numbers of the verses (as is to be found in the original CE)

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

and why KMG even CE(critical edition) states the same thing in rangbhoomi.even CE doesn't say anything about renewal of friendship

this is what CE by bibek debroy says

This is after karna has display's his skllls

Karna replied,You have said it and that alone is enough. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! I only desire your friendship. And I desire to have a duel with Partha

This is after karna has become king of anga

When the cries of Victory had died down, the bull among kings told the Kourava,²⁵What can I give you that is comparable to your gift of this kingdom? O king! O tiger among kings! Tell me and I will do your bidding. Suyodhana²⁶replied,I wish for your eternal friendship

again the same thing why will dury wish for his friendship if they were best friends since childhood and why will karna desire his friendship .This happens in front of every one shouldn't they already know karna and dury are best of friends

I have just now cross referenced with the CE.

@ red : The exact verse reads like this:

krutam sarvena may anyena sakhitvam cha tvya vrunay
dvandva yudham cha parthena kartum ichchami bharata

Seeing Karna replicating Arjuna's feats a delighted Duryodhana offers him everything he has.
Karna answers by saying, that he wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship.

Now, why should it not be that they did not know each other beforehand?

The whole line has to be taken to understand the context. Karna says he wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship. It does not necessarily mean they are meeting for the first time.

Karna and Dury are already friends. In a moment of excitement Dury offers himself and the Kuru rajya to Karna as a mark of appreciation. Karna replies that he wants nothing other than Dury;s friensdhip.

To the best of my knowledge there is no contradiction anywhere.

Originally posted by: varaali

Adi Parva .


Within the Adi Parva, in the sub Parva called the Sambhava Parva.

Towards the end of the Sambhava Parva. In fact, after one more adhyaya, the jatugrihadaha Parva starts (according to CE, not KMG)

I thought Prof Debroy has also given the relevant numbers of the verses (as is to be found in the original CE)

he has given number of sholkas but not the exact numbers for example for chapter 122 its written it has 40 sholkas but not the exact sholka number

in any case this is the full chapter 122

Vaishampayana said, O king! Bharadvajas powerful son went to Prishatas son and said, "Recognize me. Drupada replied, "O Brahmana! Your wisdom is lacking and inferior, if you suddenly begin to address me as your friend. O one with a dull mind! No great king can ever be a friend with men like you. You have no prosperity, nor do you have riches. Time decays everything, including friendship. It is true that we were friends once, but that was based on a relationship of equality. No friendship can be found in the world that does not age; desire and anger both destroy it. Do not therefore talk about a friendship that has died out. O best of Brahmanas! Find a fresh friendship. I was friends with you because it served my purpose. The poor cannot be a friend to the rich. The fool cannot be a friend to the learned. The weak cannot a friend of the strong. Who wants an old friendship? Those of similar wealth and similar lineage can have marriages and friendship together, not one who is rich with one who is poor. One who is learned in the Vedas³³⁹cannot be a friend to one who is notlearned. One with chariots cannot be a friend to one who has no chariots. A king cannot be a friend to one who is nota king. Who wants this old friendship? Thus addressed by Drupada, Bharadvajas powerful son was full of wrath and reflected for a while. The wise one thought about a course of action for Panchala³⁴⁰and made his way to Gajasahrya³⁴¹, the chief city of the Kurus.

One day, all the Kuru princes came out of Gajasahrya together. The brave ones wandered around, playing with a wooden ball.³⁴²While they were playing, the ball fell into a well. With all their efforts, they couldnt find a way to recover the ball. The valorous Drona saw that the princes were unsuccessful in their attempts. He laughed at them a little and then softly told them, "Shame on your Kshatriya prowess! Shame on your knowledge of weapons! You have been born in the Bharata lineage and yet you cannot recover a ball. Here is a handful of reeds³⁴³that I have invested with the mantra of my weapons. Look at their power, unmatched by that of anything else. I will pierce the ball with one of these reeds and that reed with another one and that one with another. With the chain of reeds, I will bring the ball up into my hands. On seeing this, the eyes of the princes widened with wonder. They saw him pull up the ball and spoke to the one who had pulled the ball up. "O Brahmana! We pay homage to you. No one else has the knowledge to do that. Who are you? We wish to know your lineage. What can we do for you? Drona replied, "Go to Bhishma and tell him of my appearance and qualities. He has great intelligence and will know what should be done. The princes agreed. They went to Bhishma, the grandfather, and told him exactly what the Brahmana had said and done. On hearing thisfrom the princes, Bhishma immediately recognized Drona. He thought that this would be the right preceptor. He went to him in person and paid him the highest of respects. Bhishma, the greatest of those who wielded arms, then skilfully asked Drona about the reason why he had come there and he told him the entire reason.

Drona said, "Desiring to learn the science of Dhanur Veda, I earlier went to maharshi Agniveshya. I lived there for a long time, as a humble brahmachari with matted hair, desiring to learn Dhanur Veda. The powerful Yajnasena, son of the king of Panchala, hardworking and dedicated, also studied with me under that teacher. There he became my friend and was always willing to do what brought me happiness. I also loved his company. O descendant of the Kuru lineage! We studied together from the time we were boys. He would come to me and do things that were pleasurable for me. O Bhishma! He used to say things that brought me pleasure: I am the favourite son of my great-souled father. O friend! When I am instated by the king of Panchala in the kingdom, it will be yours to enjoy. I swear truthfully on this. My pleasures, riches and happiness will all be yours. This is the way he spoke to me then. Having become skilled in use of weapons, I set out in search of riches. When I heard that he had been instated, I remembered those words. Happily, I went to see my old friend in his kingdom. O lord! Remembering those words, I went to my old friend Drupada and told him, O tiger among men! Recognize me as your friend. But he laughed at me, as if I was a person who was unimportant. He said, O Brahmana! Your wisdom is lacking and inferior. O Brahmana! Why have you suddenly come to me, claiming to be my friend? O one with a dull mind! No great king can ever be a friend with men like you. You have no prosperity, nor do you have riches. The poor cannot be a friend to the rich. The fool cannot be a friend to the learned. The weak cannot a friend of the strong. The king cannot be a friend to one who is not a king. Who wants an old friendship? O Bhishma! I was flooded with anger at Drupadas words and I made my way to the land of the Kurus, in search of disciples who might have the right qualities.

Vaishampayana said, Bhishma and Pandus sons accepted him as a preceptor. O king! With all kinds of riches, he handed over his grandsons as disciples to Drona, in accordance with the prescribed manner. Delighted, that great archer accepted the Kouravas as his disciples. Having accepted them, Drona called all of them together and told them privately, when they were seated at his feet, "O unblemished ones! There is a special task in my heart. You must promise me that you will give it to me when you have become skilled in the use of arms. O lord! When they heard him, the Kouravas remained silent. But Arjuna, the scorcher of enemies, gave him a complete promise and he then inhaled the scent of Arjunas forehead repeatedly, embracing him delightedly and shedding tears of joy.

Then the valorous Drona taught Pandus sons the use of many weapons, human and divine. O bull among the Bharata lineage! Other princes also came to Drona, supreme among Brahmanas, to learn the use of arms"the Vrishnis, the Andhakas, kings from many countries and Radheya,³⁴⁴the son of the suta. They made Drona their preceptor. The sutas son was envious of Partha and always competed with him. With Duryodhanas support, he showed his contempt for the Pandavas.

Originally posted by: varaali

I have just now cross referenced with the CE.

@ red : The exact verse reads like this:

krutam sarvena may anyena sakhitvam cha tvya vrunay
dvandva yudham cha parthena kartum ichchami bharata

Seeing Karna replicating Arjuna's feats a delighted Duryodhana offers him everything he has.
Karna answers by saying, that he wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship.

Now, why should it not be that they did not know each other beforehand?

The whole line has to be taken to understand the context. Karna says he wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship. It does not necessarily mean they are meeting for the first time.

Karna and Dury are already friends. In a moment of excitement Dury offers himself and the Kuru rajya to Karna as a mark of appreciation. Karna replies that he wants nothing other than Dury;s friensdhip.

To the best of my knowledge there is no contradiction anywhere.

there is a contradiction varali this is what CE says


Karna replied,You have said it and that alone is enough. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! I only desire your friendship. And I desire to have a duel with Partha

why should there be desire of any friendship if there was already an existing long term friendship

not only that what dury says later ,how other's react ,how bhima reacts all point towards the fact that at that time no one knew who karna was and that is when dury and karna's friendship begins considering what both dury and karna say to each other and everything else

i am no expert in sanskrit so cant translate sanskrit sholka but in KMG and CE words like desire and long for your friendship have been used which indicate start of a friendship.Unless KMG and CE have wrongly used these words

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Then the valorous Drona taught Pandus sons the use of many weapons, human and divine. O bull among the Bharata lineage! Other princes also came to Drona, supreme among Brahmanas, to learn the use of arms"the Vrishnis, the Andhakas, kings from many countries and Radheya,³⁴⁴the son of the suta. They made Drona their preceptor. The sutas son was envious of Partha and always competed with him. With Duryodhanas support, he showed his contempt for the Pandavas.

Thanks, Sabhyata.

The above lines highlighted in red show clearly that Karna was already friends with Duryodhana even during their gurukul days.

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

there is a contradiction varali this is what CE says


Karna replied,You have said it and that alone is enough. O descendant of the Bharata lineage! I only desire your friendship. And I desire to have a duel with Partha

why should there be desire of any friendship if there was already an existing long term friendship

not only that what dury says later ,who other's react ,how bhima reacts all point towards the fact that at that time no one knew who karna was and that is when dury and karna's friendship begins considering what both dury and karna say to each other and everything else

i am no expert in sanskrit so cant translate sanskrit sholka but in KMG and CE words like desire and long for your friendship have been used which indicate start of a friendship

You are reading only one half of the entire verse. The emphasis is not so much on 'desire' but on 'only'

I only desire your friendship.

Karna wants nothing other than Duryodhana's friendship. That's the meaning of this verse. In the previous verse Durodhana offers himself and the Kuru rajyam to Karna as a token of appreciation.

Aham cha Kuru rajyam cha yatheshtumupabhujyataam

In reply to this generous offer from Dury, Karna replies that he wants nothing other than Dury;s friendship.