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What came first...

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Posted: 14 years ago

#101

Originally posted by: CunningLinguist

That's a bit like saying that if I were to arrive at a murder scene, and I see a body lying on the floor, blood spilt everywhere, the room is all in a mess... according to you, the murder didn't happen because I wasn't there to see it.

Even though I wasn't there, there is a lot of evidence left behind like fingerprints, DNA etc...we use scientific inference to help us identify and capture the real criminal. Similarly, the world is filled with evidence, we weren't there to see evolution taking place, or when the planet formed, but these process left behind its own "fingerprints", and science is a tool we use to help us uncover this evidence and help us understand the natural world and its origins.

It is not what you're saying, it's not like scientists come together and make up some story and then try to pass it on as fact.

That's limiting God...like I said those who have realized God believe in Him...have seen Him..felt Him...even talked to Him...If you go on a search with the preconceived notion that you are not going to find what you are looking for...you won't...even if it right in front of your eyes. Spirituality is the science of the soul...you have to experience it to believe it...it's that subtle.

@return_to_hades - I guess this answers your argument as well. And Spirituality should not be confused with religion...these are 2 separate things...

Edited by dolphinUSA - 14 years ago

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Kezia

@MagixX

Rocker

Posted: 14 years ago

#102

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I don't believe in miracles. I think if we apply ourselves we can gain a better understanding of things no matter how baffling they are. If I attributed everything I don't understand to God's miracle, then I would be turning my back on the very opportunities presented before me to learn and understand. I hope that answers your question on miracles.
Ok, good luck then! 😉

Since there is nothing to fear, tell me some things. How would you define God and miracles, what do they mean to you? - God is great, He is perfect. His miracles are something which humans cannot think of doing, at least, not as fast as He does. What do they mean to me? The answers to my questions.
Why do you let things just be? - Do you think I've never questioned? If I hadn't seen those miracles, I would be here questioning His existence as well.
What makes you dead sure that you know God? Are you sure beyond reasonable doubt? - I wish I knew everything about Him, but whatever little I do know, I'm quite firm in my belief.
You believe in God and creation (at least your posts seem to state so)? What have you done to understand what you believe? What do you do if beliefs are disproven by facts ' deny the facts, reconcile facts and beliefs or try to make amends? - Like you said, Rain can be explained through science. What if I said there is no science without God as God created science as well? When you think everything can be proven by science, there is still that tiny bit - where did that smallest of the smallest thing come from, that is where my God comes in.

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#103

@.Doe - Wouldn't you still share your experiences with us? If your belief in those 'miracles' is so firm, then what's the harm in sharing?

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Kezia

@MagixX

Rocker

Posted: 14 years ago

#104

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan
@.Doe - Wouldn't you still share your experiences with us? If your belief in those 'miracles' is so firm, then what's the harm in sharing?

Like I said, people got healed through prayers. Some diseases like spondylitis. One of my relations had a severe pain in her hand, and when the preacher said there is someone in the crowd who is suffering from severe pain in the hand, and that God is going to heal them, and prayed for her, she got cured.

Edited by .Doe. - 14 years ago

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Cuty16

@Cuty16

Voyager

Posted: 14 years ago

#105

According to big bang theory about how the universe was made.

And then how the first life arosed,so the first life arosed in water that was virion and the development started fishes(lives in water) came into existance then the amphibianse(which live both on land and water)
then further modification birds came.
So scientificaly if just talking about hen and egg.
Egg came first.

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#106

@.Doe - Where did the tiniest of particle come from? The answer is this E = mc²Its nothing but a process of interconversion of matter and energy. When a mass disappears, you may say that its destroyed. But its not. Its merely transformed into energy, which you can't see. Similarly when the mass appears, you say its created (and assume that there's a creator God). But in reality, its the energy which transform into mass or matter.

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return_to_hades

@return_to_hades

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 14 years ago

#107

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

@Bold - Actually, original Indian religions were never of this sort. Vedanta was based on four pillars - 1. Gyan (knowledge) 2. Dhyan (concentration) 3. Mimansa (Debate) 4. Karma (action).
Vedic scholars never asked anyone to believe whatever written in scriptures as supreme. They valued reasons and logic above everything else. In ancient India, both Astiks and Nastiks co-existed while in other parts of the world atheists were considered demon-ish or evil. People like Mahavir, Buddha and the Charvakas were hardcore atheists and yet they were more popular than main-stream Vedic Brahmins. No educated Indian, be it Vedic theists or Non-vedic atheists, called themselves 'God fearing' people.

Its only in medieval Puranic age, Gods and their avatars came into existence and this artificial 'bhakti' concept was introduced where man has to worship and please God to gain his favour and secure heaven. Religion became dictatorial, reasons and debates were censured by Brahmins and atheism was perceived to be crime against God.

You are right. Most Eastern religions tend to defy traditional convention of religion. As you stated Hinduism accepts Nastiks and Astiks, wile being atheist is considered anti-religious by others. Vedanta is based on philosophy, science, and other knowledge based realms rather than pure belief. Mahavir and Buddha were atheists and their religions Jainism and Buddhism are non theistic religions. Taoism and Shintoism of the orient are focused on spirituality. Confucianism which was the most prevalent religion in China was focused on law and code of conduct.

Even western monotheism was not so adverse to philosophy and science as it is in modern times. Mystic Kaballah has texts like Zohar which touch upon quantum physics, metaphysics and such. As I mentioned in a previous post, Darwin and the scientists postulating evolution and genetic theory were actually church scientists and church funded scientists. Even Islam during the period of Dar Es Salaam university was very focused on structured study.

Knowledge however made people free thinkers and independent. Churches, priests and religious leaders no longer could control people with fear of God - and hence time and again we religion trying to force people into blind faith and blind beliefs and crush independent thinking.

Phil Pullman's Dark Materials series is a good metaphor on organized religion versus free thinking humans (religious, spiritual or others).

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Rehanism

@Rehanism

Dazzler

+ 2

Posted: 14 years ago

#108

Originally posted by: .Doe.

Like I said, people got healed through prayers. Some diseases like spondylitis. One of my relations had a severe pain in her hand, and when the preacher said there is someone in the crowd who is suffering from severe pain in the hand, and that God is going to heal them, and prayed for her, she got cured.

Does it happen every time? I mean, if every wounded or suffering person pray with equal devotion, can you or any preacher guarantee that all those people would be healed?

I gave this example in another thread - A man's father is crucial. The man prays to his God and the man's father is saved. The man believes that his prayer has saved him. Next time the man's mother is crucial and the man prays with equal faith, but his mother dies.

So what are these? God's Miracle or coincidence?

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Kezia

@MagixX

Rocker

Posted: 14 years ago

#109

Can you explain the "coincidence" then?

Edit: Besides, how can you be so sure that the person was praying with enough faith? Or just as same as the other person?

Edited by .Doe. - 14 years ago

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-Aarya-

@-Aarya-

Dazzler

Posted: 14 years ago

#110

Originally posted by: .Doe.
Can you explain the "coincidence" then?

Edit: Besides, how can you be so sure that the person was praying with enough faith? Or just as same as the other person?

In science it's defined as when two rays of light strike a surface at the same point at the same time. :)

Faith is trust, an emotion! As stated on page 11...
Happiness, peace, or love are emotions which in response can be measured. And even though we can't actually see emotions on a physical level we know they exist because we can measure them. Just like we know air, which in theory can't be seen, is air because we learned early on how to identify and measure it and it's properties. The sense of sight. Seeing and the abilities to see have no physical form. We know how and why we see, know the physical makeup of the eyes and how particles reflect off each other that translate into images the eye can see. And yet, the actual act of seeing has no physical form. I feel the same about God and religion..seeing is believing!

Edited by night13 - 14 years ago

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