Chicken vs Egg - Page 9

Originally posted by: dolphinUSA

So in theory you are believing what others believed and taught...right? I am assuming you have not measured happiness or peace or love or air yourself. You just know this can be done because someone else has done/assumed it and you believe it so. So ask those who have realized the existence of God...those who experience it..know it...and believe it.

@ bold - Would it be wrong if I rephrase it as - Those who have claimed to realize the existence of God, those who have claimed to experience it, claim to know it...and hence believe it???

Its true that Truth need not be proven, but that definitely doesn't mean that truth cannot be proven. If God is truth, then God's existence too can be proven with reasons and debates. And true awakened souls will never say that God is above reason and science is immaterial before God. Only idiots and blind theists will say so. Without physics, there can be no metaphysics.

Vivekananda used to say :
Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within, by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy — by one or more or all of these — and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

@ bold - Would it be wrong if I rephrase it as - Those who have claimed to realize the existence of God, those who have claimed to experience it, claim to know it...and hence believe it???

Its true that Truth need not be proven, but that definitely doesn't mean that truth cannot be proven. If God is truth, then God's existence too can be proven with reasons and debates. And true awakened souls will never say that God is above reason and science is immaterial before God. Only idiots and blind theists will say so. Without physics, there can be no metaphysics.

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

@ bold - Would it be wrong if I rephrase it as - Those who have claimed to realize the existence of God, those who have claimed to experience it, claim to know it...and hence believe it???

Its true that Truth need not be proven, but that definitely doesn't mean that truth cannot be proven. If God is truth, then God's existence too can be proven with reasons and debates. And true awakened souls will never say that God is above reason and science is immaterial before God. Only idiots and blind theists will say so. Without physics, there can be no metaphysics.

Vivekananda used to say :
Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within, by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or psychic control, or philosophy ' by one or more or all of these ' and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.

Call me an idiot but I do believe science is nothing compared to God. Science and evolution go only as far as the single cell is concerned. Ever thought where that single cell came from?

Originally posted by: .Doe.

Would you believe if I say? So, what's the use..😉

Let me first tell you, there's nothing called magic; everything is logic. Its only us who are too lazy or too dimwitted to delve into these 'miracles' and find that logic. A time was there when people used to believe that thunders happened because Gods get angry, but they were proven wrong. A time was there when people believe that when you pour milk on a stone idol, it "drinks" the milk. Later it was proven that this happens due to greater cohesive force between liquid molecules compared to the adhesive force on such surfaces.

So you too may share your experiences with us. Its possible we might be able to find a reason - if not today then may be tomorrow...But stay assured, we won't make fun of you..😛

Originally posted by: dolphinUSA

Call me an idiot but I do believe science is nothing compared to God. Science and evolution go only as far as the single cell is concerned. Ever thought where that single cell came from?

Yes I did think that. The answer is there's nothing called creation or destruction. Its only an endless process of transformation. This is what Vedanta says. This is what Mahavir said. This is precisely what even Buddha said and he had always warned people against abandoning their power of reasoning.

As I said earlier, may be scientists are limited and cannot give all your answers, but that doesn't mean science is limited. Science and God IS one and same and its realms are infinite. Those are fools who think that science is limited to MSc or MTech or Phd just like those fools who think that God is limited to temples, scriptures, forms and mantras.

What is a miracle?

a) Coincidence

b) Undiscovered science

c) Act of God

Every phenomenon on earth has a rational and spiritual aspect to it. Take something simple like rain for example. There was a time in history it was a miracle. There is still a spiritual/emotional aspect to it; however we now understand it scientifically and rationally. We now know a whole hydrology cycle that explains rain and more, and are striving to understand more about weather patterns.

The problem with extreme and literal interpretation of religion is that 'God' and 'God's miracles' are deemed to be the answer to each and everything that we do not understand, or occurrences that fall outside the normal pattern of things. Just because events stir a sense of spirituality or beyond nature, does not mean that they are inexplicable and that we should sit twiddling our thumbs and try not to understand the world around us.

The whole argument of creation vs. evolution came about because of this. People did not understand where we and other creatures came from and attributed everything to "God's creation". Today when we understand more about how we biologically came to being through evolution people want to reject it because it threatens their notion of "God" and "God's creation". Its baffling and ironic.

If God exists, and whether it is the omniscient, omnipotent God of western monotheism or the Eastern spiritual concepts of Tao or Brahman – the fact we all can agree upon is that this "God" is beyond human comprehension. This "God" is supposed to encompass the universe and beyond. We probably know less than 1% of all that is out there to know, and understand even less. So I'm hard pressed to understand how people are willing to accept this scant knowledge as truths and convince themselves that the essence of "God" so vast and omniscient is captured within the pages of manmade books or that it can be passed on truthfully through generations of flawed and fickle humanity.

I believe in God, because I'm a believer. But I would never dare to pass on that I know God or that my God is factual. The humble truth is that I probably don't even know what I don't know. That is why to me God and science, converge as one, as truth. The more I question, the more I seek to learn – the more I will know and understand the world around me and only by knowing more and understanding more can I dare to come closer spiritually and intellectually to "science/God". If I closed my eyes and followed the pages of books and words of men , I'm afraid I'll be pushed only further and further away from the truth.

"The truth is out there, I want to believe". Call me a cross of Fox Mulder and Dana Scully.

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

Yes I did think that. The answer is there's nothing called creation or destruction. Its only an endless process of transformation. This is what Vedanta says. This is what Mahavir said. This is precisely what even Buddha said and he had always warned people against abandoning their power of reasoning.

As I said earlier, may be scientists are limited and cannot give all your answers, but that doesn't mean science is limited. Science and God IS one and same and its realms are infinite. Those are fools who think that science is limited to MSc or MTech or Phd just like those fools who think that God is limited to temples, scriptures, forms and mantras.

So you believe Vendata and Mahavir but not Christ...
People who believe in God not necessarily challenge Science...they simply believe Science can go only so far...because the very basis of Science was created by God.

Quoting from the bible...
"In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was with God...and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him...and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man and after the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this, let's say we have a man making contest." To which the scientist replied, "OK, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God just looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"

Originally posted by: Darklord_Rehan

Let me first tell you, there's nothing called magic; everything is logic. Its only us who are too lazy or too dimwitted to delve into these 'miracles' and find that logic. A time was there when people used to believe that thunders happened because Gods get angry, but they were proven wrong. A time was there when people believe that when you pour milk on a stone idol, it "drinks" the milk. Later it was proven that this happens due to greater cohesive force between liquid molecules compared to the adhesive force on such surfaces.

So you may share us your experiences too. Its possible we might be able to find a reason - if not today then may be tomorrow...But stay assured, we won't make fun of you..😛

Originally posted by: dolphinUSA

Call me an idiot but I do believe science is nothing compared to God. Science and evolution go only as far as the single cell is concerned. Ever thought where that single cell came from?

There is a field of science known as Abiogenesis, dedicated purely to the study of the origins of life.

Originally posted by: CunningLinguist

There is a field of science known as Abiogenesis, dedicated purely to the study of the origins of life.

I bet that's written by someone who was not physically there when the first cell was created...s/he simply furthered out the assumptions passed on to him for eons...everyone is believing one person who started this whole series of discussions...no one in reality actually went out in search for the answers...
All theories have a predetermined hypothesis...many assumptions are made and many facts left hanging in the air.