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Posted: 9 years ago
#41

Originally posted by: -Gan-


Aww I missed this Anu calm voiced analysis so much...

Yes you have raised some very valid points...and it's hard for us Ishra fans but the fact of the matter is until Raman doesn't completely bury his ghost with Shagun as his ex , this kind of things are going to happen...we want her to be just the biological mother of his two kids but somehow their history keeps on coming back...not from anyone else but from Raman. And with this track that whole line is getting muddled without him fully realizing or him not wanting to look that way to keep his conscience clean.

And what bothers me the most is in his obsession to get a child for Ishita, he is risking his relationship with her and without that relationship what is the point of having a child? And my question is HOW in the world gifting a child borne out of Shagun or for that matter anyone else's womb would make Ishita forget that she can't ever bear a child on her own? Wasn't that the only reason Raman wanted to have a child with Ishita? How did all of those completely become secondary?

Surrogacy is a wonderful option for a lot of couple, but here in Ishra's case it was absolutely unnecessary. It's forced for a different purpose and for that they compromised everything..including the premise of the show. And that hurts me as an audience. And the blatant disregard for Ishita's wishes or her opinion, insults the woman in me. the mother of a daughter that I'm. And if people think this is about feminism, I would say...no it's rather about a woman's right over her own body about her consent about procreation...you can't violate that just because this is a fiction. Fiction needs to have some boundaries too.



I missed this too!🤗

@Blue: And you got it in one. This was supposed to be Ishita's biggest track not ISHRA's. This was supposed to be about Ishita ad her struggle , both with infertility and the big decisions and processes but also about the idea of a womb and motherhood as being the definition of a 'complete/real woman' .

They could have gone many different directions with is: her reconciling herself with the desire of wanting to try for a child and what that means in terms of all her previous discussions about RUDHI being enough, about not needing to bear a child to feel complete, about dealing with the struggles and practicalities of IVF/Surrogacy etc etc. There was so much scope on this track. And in the end, they made it about Raman. I can't get over that.

How did the track about infertility, become a track about Raman and a vehicle for SHARAM? I find that insulting and disrespectful. To an outside viewer, just coming in watching this it would certainly look like it's about Raman wanting another child and looking for another means because of his wife's fertility issues. And that's just wrong.

As for surrogacy and consent, i can't even begin to unravel that mess, but then we are talking about a show [and a woman, lest we forget ] who swapped children via a contract so really- maybe we expected too much. 🤢

@ Red: Exactly. I get you. Procreation and surrogacy aside, this is about a woman's rights over her own body and her right to choose what happens. They infringed Ishita's rights and now is using that theft to draft up some convoluted reminiscent romance for SHARAM? The level of moral depravity in this kind of thinking bears no comprehension. If you want to make SHARAM happen, fine- but don't steal Ishita's womb , or lack of it, to make them happen.

Having seen so many friends deal with fertility issues and read up on so many cases on this i just cannot wrap my head around on one level on which this makes any sense. Raman committed a crime, a legal and moral crime against his own wife and he disrespected her basic right as a woman. And this is the man I am supposed to cheer for? This is your hero? 🤢
Edited by RomComFan - 9 years ago
Mdwst thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#42
After reading all the comments in this thread, I don't think even the cv's would have analyzed the character and the situation with this intensity, passion, clarity and depth. Amazing insight, awesome post. Thank you Rom Com, Gan and everybody who commented in this thread. Standing ovation and a big round of applause to guys. Thank you so much.
I also want to thank people who are commenting/yet to comment for your posts.
Thank you once again
Edited by Mdwst - 9 years ago
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Posted: 9 years ago
#43
Gan, thank you so much for asking the same questions without hurling abuses 🤗

What I'm going to say next might come across as if I'm defending Raman, but I AM NOT. I'm just trying to build upon the character that I've always known and loved, and understand how did this man come to the current state.

Raman Kumar Bhalla has ALWAYS been an obsessive man. He obsesses about people he loves. To the extent of insanity.

He was always obsessive about Shagun, and she left no stone unturned in reminding him how he has been unable to fulfill her dreams, materialistic or not. When she left him, when he broke apart, she left behind this feeling of being inadequate. It became a part of him, something he always needed to work on, something he always needed to defend, something that always, in some tiny part of his heart and brain scared him, lest he might lose someone else close to him because of the same.

When he lost their child, his and Ishita's, he felt guilty. The feeling of inadequacy resurfaced, and grew in multiples. This time, someone had not just left him, it had died, before even being born, who was his own, who was Ishita's own, their miracle baby. With this miscarriage, I think there came a change in him. Where he started equating Ishita's wish of being a mother, with her own flesh and blood, instead of the joy and experience of physical motherhood. All he wanted to do, has since been wanting to do, since then, is fulfill her dream, give her what she lost. Point to be noted: It is what HE thinks is her dream, it is what HE thinks she lost, where she instead gained her first 2 kids back from the clutches of death.

His growing feeling of incompetence coupled with his assumptions gave way to his obsession. Obsession with bringing about in this world a child born out of HIS & HER body, because that is what he thinks he lost. Not the journey of being parents again, but a bundle of joy at the end of that journey. It was all he could think about, and so his obsession led to one thing after the other, and today, we're here, discussing this.

Having said all this, let me re-iterate (for the fear of being thrown stones at) this is NOT in defence of RKB, but rather a mere understanding of the character traits.

Even in this understanding, there are some mind-numbing loopholes. Some glaring questions that I do not have an answer to.

Does his intention justify his deed? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

He has cheated on Ishita. Period.

Did they need surrogacy at all? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

They have two beautiful kids who love both their parents to death. As Dr. Manoj himself said, being a mother is not just a physical experience, but an emotional experience. But Ishita has ALREADY had that emotional experience with Ruhi and Adi.

Shagun's involvement in all this. PUKEWORTHY.

Lets assume for a minute, Shagun really transformed into SnowWhite and Raman knows she's purer than 24K gold now. Even then, how could a man so in love with his life, consent to his ex-wife carrying his and his wife's child? The ex-wife who had an emotional and physical relationship with him for years, who bore him 2 kids.

Two other times where Raman has been bashed left, right and center are Amma Accident and Child Swap. I say, they were nothing compared to this. Amma Accident and Child Swap were circumstantial. Yes, he acted like a moron during the child swap, but he did not voluntarily sign those papers, he was duped.

But this time, its all his own doing, and THAT is what is the most heart-breaking thing about all this drama. There is no one else to blame right now, but him. No Shagun. No Adi. No Ashok. No situation. Nothing. Just him, and his blind obsession stemming from his deeply ingrained insecurity of being incapable.

There is NO redemption for him, at least nothing that I can foresee, because unintentionally he has insulted Ishita in the most derogatory way possible, he has hit her where it hurts the most.

For anything to move forward, everything has to be wiped off. They have to part ways. He needs remorse. And she needs strength. There's no other scope.
Edited by -Nidoo- - 9 years ago
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Posted: 9 years ago
#44
You know...I've said this in passing to people, but I suspect Raman suffers bipolar disorder (or the milder form called cyclothymic disorder). Bipolar disorder is NOT split personalities or anything.

Raman gets caught up in these manic episodes where he displays symptoms of: (1) increased irritability, (2) goal-focused/one track mind, (3) reckless/self-damaging behavior, and (4) increased self-esteem/grandiosity.

Then when he is not manic he often has shown depressive symptoms: (1) disproportional sadness, (2) incredible guilt, (3) feelings of hopelessness & worthlessness, and (4) indecisiveness.

This isn't to be a joke, but this "new" Raman they have crafted in the name of drama is one who inadvertently suffers a mental illness. This isn't to justify any behaviors shown, but I just think there is something unsettlingly pathologic to who Raman has become, especially in 2015.

If you want to learn more about bipolar disorder - here's a good link: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bipolar-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027544

---

Diagnosing on screen characters aside...I really wonder how anyone can conceive such a track in the name of love?

We've talked about this before - but I cannot fathom even how this idea came to fruition. It seems so unthinkable to me.

Tis a pity.
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Posted: 9 years ago
#45

Originally posted by: -K.13-

You know...I've said this in passing to people, but I suspect Raman suffers bipolar disorder (or the milder form called cyclothymic disorder). Bipolar disorder is NOT split personalities or anything.

Raman gets caught up in these manic episodes where he displays symptoms of: (1) increased irritability, (2) goal-focused/one track mind, (3) reckless/self-damaging behavior, and (4) increased self-esteem/grandiosity.

Then when he is not manic he often has shown depressive symptoms: (1) disproportional sadness, (2) incredible guilt, (3) feelings of hopelessness & worthlessness, and (4) indecisiveness.

This isn't to be a joke, but this "new" Raman they have crafted in the name of drama is one who inadvertently suffers a mental illness. This isn't to justify any behaviors shown, but I just think there is something unsettlingly pathologic to who Raman has become, especially in 2015.

If you want to learn more about bipolar disorder - here's a good link: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bipolar-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027544

---

Diagnosing on screen characters aside...I really wonder how anyone can conceive such a track in the name of love?

We've talked about this before - but I cannot fathom even how this idea came to fruition. It seems so unthinkable to me.

Tis a pity.


I remember your diagnosis of Raman 2 days ago 😆 😆 Now wait till they make fun of this medical issue 😳

On another note, I don't think they sit and decide which medical ailments to mock today, or what all can we make Raman do in the name of love.

I think they sit and discuss, what all can be done to increase the drama quotient, create havoc in leads' lives and pull them apart. Because this thought process guarantees them TRP audiences love in 3 stages: Fight, Separation, Reunion. And then they pull out everything under the sun just so that this drama can happen.
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Posted: 9 years ago
#46

Originally posted by: -K.13-


---

Diagnosing on screen characters aside...I really wonder how anyone can conceive such a track in the name of love?

We've talked about this before - but I cannot fathom even how this idea came to fruition. It seems so unthinkable to me.

Tis a pity.



It stems from Ekta's demented mind and her dysfunctional childhood! All ML starts off with a bang strong personalities in the beginning of her serials and are butchered sooner or later (we were lucky RKB lasted for the mast part close to 2 years)..its a kin to her view of daddy dearest and the male species in her life!

Not meant to offend but my POV based on my view/knowledge of her history!

@Gan, a fantastic post. Totally enjoyed reading all POV especially as it emulates what I have been thinking for awhile now!
Nina
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Posted: 9 years ago
#47

Originally posted by: -Nidoo-

Gan, thank you so much for asking the same questions without hurling abuses 🤗


What I'm going to say next might come across as if I'm defending Raman, but I AM NOT. I'm just trying to build upon the character that I've always known and loved, and understand how did this man come to the current state.

Raman Kumar Bhalla has ALWAYS been an obsessive man. He obsesses about people he loves. To the extent of insanity.

He was always obsessive about Shagun, and she left no stone unturned in reminding him how he has been unable to fulfill her dreams, materialistic or not. When she left him, when he broke apart, she left behind this feeling of being inadequate. It became a part of him, something he always needed to work on, something he always needed to defend, something that always, in some tiny part of his heart and brain scared him, lest he might lose someone else close to him because of the same.

When he lost their child, his and Ishita's, he felt guilty. The feeling of inadequacy resurfaced, and grew in multiples. This time, someone had not just left him, it had died, before even being born, who was his own, who was Ishita's own, their miracle baby. With this miscarriage, I think there came a change in him. Where he started equating Ishita's wish of being a mother, with her own flesh and blood, instead of the joy and experience of physical motherhood. All he wanted to do, has since been wanting to do, since then, is fulfill her dream, give her what she lost. Point to be noted: It is what HE thinks is her dream, it is what HE thinks she lost, where she instead gained her first 2 kids back from the clutches of death.

His growing feeling of incompetence coupled with his assumptions gave way to his obsession. Obsession with bringing about in this world a child born out of HIS & HER body, because that is what he thinks he lost. Not the journey of being parents again, but a bundle of joy at the end of that journey. It was all he could think about, and so his obsession led to one thing after the other, and today, we're here, discussing this.

Having said all this, let me re-iterate (for the fear of being thrown stones at) this is NOT in defence of RKB, but rather a mere understanding of the character traits.

Even in this understanding, there are some mind-numbing loopholes. Some glaring questions that I do not have an answer to.

Does his intention justify his deed? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

He has cheated on Ishita. Period.

Did they need surrogacy at all? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

They have two beautiful kids who love both their parents to death. As Dr. Manoj himself said, being a mother is not just a physical experience, but an emotional experience. But Ishita has ALREADY had that emotional experience with Ruhi and Adi.

Shagun's involvement in all this. PUKEWORTHY.

Lets assume for a minute, Shagun really transformed into SnowWhite and Raman knows she's purer than 24K gold now. Even then, how could a man so in love with his life, consent to his ex-wife carrying his and his wife's child? The ex-wife who had an emotional and physical relationship with him for years, who bore him 2 kids.

Two other times where Raman has been bashed left, right and center are Amma Accident and Child Swap. I say, they were nothing compared to this. Amma Accident and Child Swap were circumstantial. Yes, he acted like a moron during the child swap, but he did not voluntarily sign those papers, he was duped.

But this time, its all his own doing, and THAT is what is the most heart-breaking thing about all this drama. There is no one else to blame right now, but him. No Shagun. No Adi. No Ashok. No situation. Nothing. Just him, and his blind obsession stemming from his deeply ingrained insecurity of being incapable.

There is NO redemption for him, at least nothing that I can foresee, because unintentionally he has insulted Ishita in the most derogatory way possible, he has hit her where it hurts the most.

For anything to move forward, everything has to be wiped off. They have to part ways. He needs remorse. And she needs strength. There's no other scope.



How can I hurl abuse at one of my favorite characters... I have held him responsible as and when he had messed up as much as I have blamed Ishita...because as you and others who know me well , know that I cant hate either of them. I relate to their flaws more than their positive traits and always have looked at them more as a unit, rather that individual components.

I loved how you put across his mindset leading to this destructive obsession of getting Ishita her bioligical kids. Thank you for that..and maybe for that reason some of us can't hate him as others who are only focusing on his kaand. But we can't defend him either because like you put across...this he brought it upon himself. And like you many of us can't see any flicker of hope that SP tries to push of his redemption, of the situation getting less convoluted than it is right now. For me that's why more than the surrogacy, his actions leading to it have become more important...I dont care even if it was this big warped story-line of Shagun/Anda Chor/whole hospital's evil conspiracy and there is no baby...still Raman doesn't get scott free because his actions were done prior to Shagun's involvement directly in the surrogacy. Your parts in bold sets the crux of the situation perfectly. And that is where my disconnect with the storyline is.

And as we know by history...the CVs will take the short cut route to come out of this clusterf*ck they have manufactured...It is their responsibility that we're at a crossroad where unless the characters are again severely compromised, separation is the only route.

Was it really worth it? This track...that's my question to the creatives or the channel

(dont know if I made any sense...as I'm probaly repeating the same thought over and over again...as frankly I'm caught up in that web of confusion myself😕)
Edited by -Gan- - 9 years ago
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Posted: 9 years ago
#48
After a lot of telly-soapish experience, I have come close to understanding how these telly CVs brains work.

They do think about what are the core plots of this show.

In YHM's case, Infertility and Infidelity.

How do we combine both the plots in a single track so as to be able to go to base zero?

Involve a character which is central to both the issues.

In this case, Shagun. How is Shagun involved in infertility you may ask. Simply by being the biological mother of Ishita's kids.

Lets first talk about the Infertility issue.

What will bring Ishita's infertility insecurity at the forefront?

When she sees someone pregnant? Scratch that! She won't be affected by random strangers.

When she sees Subbu's wife pregnant? Scratch that too, we killed Subbu's wife. Moreover, Ishita wouldn't be affected by Subbu that much now because she has Raman.

When she sees Shagun pregnant again? Now thats interesting.

When she sees Shagun pregnant with Raman's child? JACKPOT!

So Plot 1 brought to the forefront for drama: Make Shagun pregnant with Raman's child.

But wait!

IshRa's bond is supposed to be 'sacred'. Raman cannot be made to jiggy with Shagun, not even when drunk. Because even before he married Ishita, he got drunk and never touched her because he felt disgusted. And he loves Ishita! Questioning his love for her would be a sin.

What is the other way that she could get pregnant with Raman's child?

Check medical books.

Seems Surrogacy is a viable option.

Good, we're going in for surrogacy.

And because Shagun becomes pregnant, Raman takes care of her, Ishita gets jealous. While on one hand Raman forgives Shagun and becomes friends, Ishita thinks he's cheating on her. Infidelity tackled too!

One in hand, two in bush!

But, how will this all happen? As in narrative? How will Shagun become the surrogate? Why will Ishita consent? How will Raman agree?

I don't know, I don't care. Just make it happen.

We need to see Shagun pregnant with Raman's child to bring both the core plots back into limelight - Infertility and Infidelity. This is the most fool-proof way!
Edited by -Nidoo- - 9 years ago
-Gan- thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#49

Originally posted by: -K.13-

You know...I've said this in passing to people, but I suspect Raman suffers bipolar disorder (or the milder form called cyclothymic disorder). Bipolar disorder is NOT split personalities or anything.

Raman gets caught up in these manic episodes where he displays symptoms of: (1) increased irritability, (2) goal-focused/one track mind, (3) reckless/self-damaging behavior, and (4) increased self-esteem/grandiosity.

Then when he is not manic he often has shown depressive symptoms: (1) disproportional sadness, (2) incredible guilt, (3) feelings of hopelessness & worthlessness, and (4) indecisiveness.

This isn't to be a joke, but this "new" Raman they have crafted in the name of drama is one who inadvertently suffers a mental illness. This isn't to justify any behaviors shown, but I just think there is something unsettlingly pathologic to who Raman has become, especially in 2015.

If you want to learn more about bipolar disorder - here's a good link: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/bipolar-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20027544

---

Diagnosing on screen characters aside...I really wonder how anyone can conceive such a track in the name of love?

We've talked about this before - but I cannot fathom even how this idea came to fruition. It seems so unthinkable to me.

Tis a pity.



I haven't read the whole thing yet...but I had to comment...are you sure this is not your Psych rotation talking 😆😆

Just kidding...let me read the rest of it
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Posted: 9 years ago
#50

Originally posted by: -Nidoo-


I remember your diagnosis of Raman 2 days ago 😆 😆 Now wait till they make fun of this medical issue 😳

On another note, I don't think they sit and decide which medical ailments to mock today, or what all can we make Raman do in the name of love.

I think they sit and discuss, what all can be done to increase the drama quotient, create havoc in leads' lives and pull them apart. Because this thought process guarantees them TRP audiences love in 3 stages: Fight, Separation, Reunion. And then they pull out everything under the sun just so that this drama can happen.


No trust me with my TV viewing history - I know they don't put this type of thought into character sketches at this stage in the show..

After spending 2 weeks with many bipolar patients - why not make Raman a case example? Plus they make characters do things for drama, but these pathologic traits/behaviors in Raman are pretty consistent during the high intensity tracks of the show. 😆

I understand the level of "thought" put into tracks, and can easily ID which tracks are TRP grabbers and I know what they will stretch. For example...Ishita coming to emotional terms with her miscarriage was postponed - for what? The umph factor once they were in the heat of her insecurity track.

This track is TRP magic b/c no aunty cares about surrogacy or infertility being cured by sex. Here's what they see...
-Bechari FL
-Dumb ML who is being MU as he tries to do something for his wife
-Questionable third party who's like 80% evil
-Separation = lots of crying = lots of eyes on the show
-Raises the question - how will the ML prove his love and innocence to the FL? Or will the FL save him from a trap? *more eyes on the show*
-Resolution & reunion = cash money!
-If Shagun goes gayab - even more mystery especially b/c the "who dun it" for Rinki's death did nothing. It will get viewers to think - who will be blamed? Baby still alive? ...Jaane ke liye, dekh ye Yeh Hai Mohabattein on humari favorite channel, Star Plus! 😆

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