Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan

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Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#371

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Was it 12 years after marriage? I read that Shri Ram got married at 16 and left for forest at the age of 21. That's 5 years after marriage. Also, in the same book it says that Sitaji was 9 when she was married and went into exile with Ramji at the age of 14. That too is 5 years later.

In another book I read, it says that Sita was 14 and Ram 16 when they were married, and that they were exiled a few months after their marriage.

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#372

Ananya

Your account of the agni-praveshna made the most sense.

Anyway, new questions from today's (& the pre-cap of tomorrow's) episode:

1. Did Rama actually take a vow in front of the statues of his ancestors? In which book was this written?

2. Did Shiva, Brahma, Narad, et al actually attend Rama's rajyabhishek? It was cute seeing it today, but did it really happen?

3. Was it Vibhishan (of all people) who challenged Hanuman to demonstrate whether Rama & Sita reside in him?

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#373

Originally posted by: chen2chic

And also, in in the Valmiki Ramayan, no one is given a clue of what Shri Ram would talk at the scene of Agnipariksha. Everyone including Lakshman is puzzled at his behaviour.

But the Sagars left a loophole in this serial when Lakshman is angry at Ram on hearing about the Agnipariksha. Ram says its all a "Leela" but does not explain it, leaving poor Lakshman (and also us) puzzled. 😕 But I guess, Sita's part in the Agnipariksha was fully as per Valmiki's.

I have wondered about that too. Was Ram angry at the situation where he had to speak harsh words to Sita for the sake of the outside world? He is being forced to do things, to appease the gossip-mongering world, he would not have done otherwise. Also, Valmiki says that when Sita entered Agni (and it is agni pravesha and not agni pariksha) the Vanars started wailing in grief. At that time, Ram turns around to face the area where Sita entered the fire. Here Valmiki writes that Ram's face was filled with confusion. Why was that? At that point is he not sure that Sita will come out unharmed? Why was he confused? Also, why is it that Valmiki did not give any hint as to the mental make-up of Ram at that time? Why is the whole thing left to the readers to interpret? ❓
❓

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#374

Lalitha: when Rama got married to Sita , Rama was almost sixteen There's a verse in Aranyakand where Sita tells Ravan that they left to forest after 12 years of their marriage and Ram was 25 at that time ( when he left to forest) and Sita was 18 years old; this is acc to Valmiki Ramayana.I don't have much info about other versions.

Chandra bhaiya : I don't think Shivji, Brahma and Narad made an appearence in Ram-darbar, at least it isn't mentioned by Valmiki.

Valmiki doesn't even mention about the legend of Rameshwaram and Hanuman tearing his bosom to show the image of Sita-Rama in his heart as it was shown as tomorrow's pre-cap.

Rama adoring Shiva and vice-versa is described in Ramcharitmanas.

Don't know whether Vibhishana challenges Hanuman😕

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 16 years ago

#375

Originally posted by: Mandodari

I have wondered about that too. Was Ram angry at the situation where he had to speak harsh words to Sita for the sake of the outside world? He is being forced to do things, to appease the gossip-mongering world, he would not have done otherwise. Also, Valmiki says that when Sita entered Agni (and it is agni pravesha and not agni pariksha) the Vanars started wailing in grief. At that time, Ram turns around to face the area where Sita entered the fire. Here Valmiki writes that Ram's face was filled with confusion. Why was that? At that point is he not sure that Sita will come out unharmed? Why was he confused? Also, why is it that Valmiki did not give any hint as to the mental make-up of Ram at that time? Why is the whole thing left to the readers to interpret? ❓
❓

I don't want to beat agni-pariksha to death, particularly since it's likely that discussion on that will surface later in the context of Sita's 2nd vanvas. But one thing struck me as odd - the vanaras started wailing in grief, which is what Valmiki has. In the episode here, the vanaras are depicted as gossiping about Sita, which turns Rama's joy into grief as he overhears such slanders. Was it necessary to show that, given that if they were indeed gossiping, they would have been less likely to grieve her being put to a test on their own slanders?

On Rama's age, if Rama was 25 when he married, what was he doing with Vishwamitra between the killing of Taraka (when he was 16) to upto his marriage, if it was 9 years later? There was one account that did have the ages Ananya mentions - Rama 25 and Sita 18, but Lakshman there was described as being even younger (16?), which throws the authenticity of that whole account to doubt, since Rama & Lakshman were separated only by a day. LBS were younger to Sita only by relationship, not by actual age, since in a Hindu marriage, the hubby & wife assume the same 'relational' age.

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#376

Excelent observations Deepa ji (is it OK to call you that way?) 👏👏👏

I don't think I have mch to add. Its been posted already by our friends here. 😊

Some of my opinions and doubts . . .

First of all, the curse Nalkuber laid on Ravan was that his heads will split into pieces if Ravan ever forced himself upon another woman without her consent and not if he touches another woman without her consent.

Sita Devi was a pure and chaste woman and had proved herself on contless occasions. As ananyacool pointed out (by the way, excellent explanation 👏), Sita Devi's pativrata dharm was not stained by Viraadh grabbing her or Ravan snatching her - in both cases whe was helpless. Sita Devi herself says so when she calls out for help while Ravan was taking her away on the Pushpaka Vimana, when Hanuman meets her and before she enters the fire. Again as ananyacool said, the legends that Sita Devi was not touchable are not found in the Valmiki Ramayan.

I had thought Sita Devi was present when Ram and Lakshman fought and killed Viraadh. Ram and Laksman could have gone a bit further but never out of sight of Sita Devi. It read that when Viraadh carried Ram and Lakshman on his shoulders and started going deeper into the forest, Sita Devi screamed out and said told the demon to take her and free the two sons of Raghu instead. Hearing her screams Ram and Lakshman immersed themselves in killing Viraadh. After reading this I thought Sita Devi was somewhere nearby (maybe not close but just nearby) when Viraadh was killed. Besides, I don't think Ram and Lakshman would have left Sita Devi alone in the dangerous forest and go off anywhere to fight anyone.

Coming to Sita Devi's abduction I read that Ravan snatched Sita's plait at the nape of the neck first with his left hand (and then probably the nape of the neck too) and caught hold of her thighs with his right. I do not think Sita Devi fainted at this moment but was momentarily stunned and was not aware of what was happening. The reason I think so - Ravan and Sita Devi had been conversing with each other and Ravan says that why should she be so devoid of pasion for others because of someone like Ram and snatches her (Please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Its true that some (probably most) people cannot digest the fact that an evil person can touch someone so pure and be unharmed. I too think that that is the reason behind such versions.

And there are many mentions of Rohin in this chapter. I wondered why. In fact, the verse just before (or probably after) the one that describes how Ravan carries off Sita, it is described that Ravan capturing Sita was just like Budh capturing Rohini. It probably means that the path of Budh and Rohini star crosses but isn't Rohini like a mother to Budh? Why such a comparison here? I hope I am not deviating from the actual meaning too much.

Regarding the Agni Pravesha - True, she was devastated when Ram himself was doubtful of her. Ram himself says that Ravan had thrown his hands on her and taken her away by force. The translations from Ralph T. Griffith's book:

The world is all before thee: flee:
Go where thou wilt, but not with me.
How should my home receive again
A mistress soiled with deathless stain?
How should I brook the foul disgrace,
Scorned by my friends and all my race?
For Rvan bore thee through the sky,
And fixed on thine his evil eye.
About thy waist his arms he threw,
Close to his breast his captive drew,
And kept thee, vassal of his power,
An inmate of his ladies' bower.'

Ralph T. Griffith's translation says that Sita Devi did enter the fire saying that if she had never swayed from her virtues as Ram's wife, the universal witness, the God of Fire should protect her.

Then raising suppliant hands the dame
Frayed humbly to the Lord of Flame;
'As this fond heart by virtue swayed
From Raghu's son has never strayed,
So, universal witness, Fire
Protect my body on the pyre,
As Raghu's son has idly laid
This charge on St, hear and aid.'

When the discussion on Agni Pravesha came up before someone had said that undertaking the Agni Pravesha was a physical torture (I think it was Chandraketu). It was also said that she could have taken an oath of walking on flower petals and if she was not pure it could turn into thorns. I think undertaking something that everyone fears - walking into fire is like throwing away your life - is sign of bravery and confidence. How many people will confidently take it up? I think it will be the ones who are completely confident and sure of themselves. Walking on petals is easy but walking into fire is something that people cringe away from. Sita Devi was so hurt that physical torture did not pain her more than her mental torment that Ram himself doubted her.

I too agree that Viraadh grasping Sita and the Maya Sita would not make sense in the same version. (No offence to any author or any version. Its just my opinion.)

I completely agree with godisone - good point 👏 Lord Vishnu's avtaar as Ram on Earth was to wipe out the race of demons and the demon kingdoms plaguing the Earth. He accomplished it. A friend of mine pointed out that though Vibhishan became the king of Lanka, he was not the king of the demon races as Ravan was. Ravan was the king of Lanka and the king of all Rakshas people. After Ravan's death, there were not many demons alive and the few who escaped with their lives were scattered and were finished off in the next avtaar of Lord Vishnu - Krishna Avtaar.

Probably the versions of Chaya Sita is more widely accepted. Many of my family and friends were shocked on seeing Ravan lifting Sita and taking her away (in this serial). When I told them that was how it is written in the Valmiki Ramayan they refused to believe me and told me to check it again. I appreciate the Sagars for showing that scene as it was. 👏

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Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#377

Originally posted by: Chandraketu
Ananya
Your account of the agni-praveshna made the most sense.
Anyway, new questions from today's (& the pre-cap of tomorrow's) episode:
1. Did Rama actually take a vow in front of the statues of his ancestors? In which book was this written?
2. Did Shiva, Brahma, Narad, et al actually attend Rama's rajyabhishek? It was cute seeing it today, but did it really happen?
3. Was it Vibhishan (of all people) who challenged Hanuman to demonstrate whether Rama & Sita reside in him?

I am not sure if this is from Valmiki Ramayan but according to the Hari Kathas' I've heard, devas, apsaras, Narad, Yakshas, Kinnarars, and other Gods did witness the event from the heavens. I am not sure if they came down to earth. Also, the devas showered the the couple with flowers.

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#378

Originally posted by: ananyacool
Lalitha: when Rama got married to Sita , Rama was almost sixteen There's a verse in Aranyakand where Sita tells Ravan that they left to forest after 12 years of their marriage and Ram was 25 at that time ( when he left to forest) and Sita was 18 years old; this is acc to Valmiki Ramayana.I don't have much info about other versions.

Chandra bhaiya : I don't think Shivji, Brahma and Narad made an appearence in Ram-darbar, at least it isn't mentioned by Valmiki.

Valmiki doesn't even mention about the legend of Rameshwaram and Hanuman tearing his bosom to show the image of Sita-Rama in his heart as it was shown as tomorrow's pre-cap.

Rama adoring Shiva and vice-versa is described in Ramcharitmanas.

Don't know whether Vibhishana challenges Hanuman😕

Which means Sita Devi was 6 years old when she was married to Lord Ram. If I remember correctly, Maharaj Janak was looking for suitors already and when Ram and Lakshman visited Mithila along with the sage Vishwamitra the bow was shown to Ram and when the sage made a sign to Ram to try it, Ram lifted the bow, strung it and it split with a deafening noise. Child marriage was common those days but was Maharaj Janak looking for a suitor of Sita started looking much earlier?

I had thought Sita Devi was about 10 or 12 when she was married. I may be dead wrong in this but for some reason I had been thinking that way.

Its true that Valmiki does not mentione Hanuman tearing his bosom and showing everyone that Ram and Sita were installed there already and the legend of Rameshwaram is not mentioned either. Both these incidents are not mentioned in the Kamba Ramayan either.

What I remember reading in the translations of Valmiki Ramayan is that - Sita Devi gave a pearl chain to Hanuman and wearing that he shone with brilliance or probably it was that necklace shone with brilliance on him. (Same thing is mentioned in Kamba Ramayan as well).

In Kambaramayan it is mentioned that Lord Brahma told Maya (the Asura architect - I think he was the one who built Tripura?) to build a magnificient hall for the coronation of Lord Ram and he built one so beautiful that no one was able to find an error in it. It is also mentioned that after his brothers and sages poured the sacred waters on Ram the devas did the same too one by one. But nothing is mentioned whether Lord Brahma and Lord Shiv came to Ayodhya themselves. One more verse says - Lord Shiva bore on his head the water that washed Lord Vishnu's feet (Ganga) and won't he bear this flood of water that had washed Sri Ram?

I haven't seen today's episode yet. Did Vibhishan really challenged Hanuman?

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Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 16 years ago

#379

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Ananya

Your account of the agni-praveshna made the most sense.

Anyway, new questions from today's (& the pre-cap of tomorrow's) episode:

1. Did Rama actually take a vow in front of the statues of his ancestors? In which book was this written?

2. Did Shiva, Brahma, Narad, et al actually attend Rama's rajyabhishek? It was cute seeing it today, but did it really happen?

3. Was it Vibhishan (of all people) who challenged Hanuman to demonstrate whether Rama & Sita reside in him?

I haven't read about the vow taken by Ram in front of the throne of his ancestors or before his ancestors. I too am curious to know in which version it is present. But it does make sense in a way. Usually those who are consecrated as king do bow down to his their ancestors to get their blessings - I have read bits of this custom from various sources.

I don't think Vibhishan challenged Hanuman but asked him in a gentle way whether his own body had an image of Sri Ram.

For the rest, I have to watch the episode first.

Edited by Vibhishna - 16 years ago

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ananyacool

@ananyacool

Voyager

Posted: 16 years ago

#380

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

On Rama's age, if Rama was 25 when he married, what was he doing with Vishwamitra between the killing of Taraka (when he was 16) to upto his marriage, if it was 9 years later? There was one account that did have the ages Ananya mentions - Rama 25 and Sita 18, but Lakshman there was described as being even younger (16?), which throws the authenticity of that whole account to doubt, since Rama & Lakshman were separated only by a day. LBS were younger to Sita only by relationship, not by actual age, since in a Hindu marriage, the hubby & wife assume the same 'relational' age.

Rama was 25 when he was married??😕 which version mentions this?

3-47-10 of valmiki ramayan mentions that Ram was 25, Sita 18 when they left to forest. No mention of Lakshman's age here. The verse is interpolated says the interpreter on the site (valmikiramayan.net) so the age factor is really confusing.(for me)

Its Ramcharit manas that says Lakshman was 16 when he left to forest, correct me if I'm wrong