Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan - Page 40

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Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

That brings to mind another side question. In this serial, when Ravan is talked out of taking on Rama directly by Akampana and Vibhishan, Mandodari, in her anger later at Shurpanakha, tells her that if Ravan were to engage Rama in combat, he'd definitely win. Vibhishan too seemed to alude to that somewhat reluctantly, as he agreed with Akampana that winning a combat against Rama would not bring him any glory, since Rama was a mere mortal (a bizzare argument, given that Rama had just wiped out Khar and Dushan). Does anybody actually think that Mandodari & Vibhishan was right, and that if Ravan had gone there with just Indrajit (to take on Lakshman), Shurpanakha (to abduct Sita) and a few more warriors, like, say, Atikaya, that Rama would have prevailed against them? In other words, was the abduction of Sita (aside from fulfilling Vedavati's curse) a necessary pre-requisite for Rama to be victorious against Ravan?

I'd think that Rama being a mortal would be enough, but I'm interested to hear how many think Ravan would have prevailed, particularly since he did suffer defeats in the past, including a stalemate with Rama's ancestor Mandhata.

Interesting question, Chandraketu.
The fact that Vibhishan told Ravan not to fight Ram because he was a mere mortal is new to me. Was it really mentioned that way in any version of Ramayan? (Just my doubt - please don't take offence).
The case of Ravan winning Ram depends on the circumstances - only if Ravan was righteous and came to fight Ram for any wrong that he (Ram) committed would have made Ravan victorious. This was something that would have never happened.
If Ravan had come to take Sita away and fought Ram and Lakshman in a straight battle - I don't think he would have won unless he resorts to a complete unrighteous war - using his magic to the fullest. If Ravan had brought some of his sons, generals, brothers, it would have been a tough war but Ram would have won in the end (provided that the war was fought in the proper way). Please don't mistake me - I do not say that Ram could be defeated. I just say that Ram could never be defeated if the war was waged in the righteous way. But if it was otherwise, there is a chance that Ram could have been stunned momentarily and Ravan could have taken Sita away at that time too.
If Ravan had brought an army with him along with his best warriors, then Ram could have had some trouble but it wouldn't last long - Ram had already wiped out Khar,Dushan, their generals and the army of 14,000. He could have done it again.
If Ravan had come to avenge his sister's disfiguring, then too, he would have ben defeated. Shurpanakha was at fault for going after a married man who was not interested in her and it was only when she came to kill Sita, Lakshman cut off her nose and ears.
But if Ravan had heard about Ram and came just to wage a war with him (prpbably to match his might) - the war could have raged on and on. (I am not saying that Ram and Ravan were evenly matched but just that both of them were mighty warriors.) But in the end, I think Ram would have won - being a human was a reason and being a better man than Ravan is another reason.
No offence meant, I had just given my views. I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Kumbhkaran and Indrajeet were excellent warriors but had to be killed to kill Ravan. As long as they were alive it was not possible to kill Ravan and they wouldn't have let it happen. Whenever Ravan was praised it was said that he had mighty brothers like Kumbhkaran and warriors like Indrajeet by his side. Most of his enemies, did fear these two if they did not fear Ravan.
I do not know much of Kumbhkaran and Indrajeet. But I do know they were virtuous enough to get excellent wives. Kumbhkaran was offered Vajramala for his virtuousness - I read somewhere about it long back but I forgot 😭😭😭Vajramala's father offered her in marriage to Kumbhkaran as he felt that Kumbhkaran was a good person with might and virtue. As for Indrajeet, the kingof snakes (was it Vasuki?) gave his daughter Sulochana to Indrajeet and she was a boon to him. I have been an ardent admirer of that character always. Indrajeet was a valiant warrior but was on the wrong side.
Kumbhkaran did not press his brother more and more to return Sita to Ram. And Indrajeet never felt that they will lose the war till he faced the full fury of Lakshman in the end (was it his over confidence? or arrogance? - I will decide on the former). He never contradicted his father when he brought Sita to Lanka or when he ruined the lives of countless other women. Was it because he felt that he should not speak against his father regarding his (Ravan's) personal wishes or was it because he didn't mind? I can understand Vajramala or Sulochana not speaking against Ravan for this but why didn't Kumbhkaran atleast not speak against it (maybe he was busy sleeping and Indrajeet felt uncomfortable to bring up the topic?) Why didn't Vibhishan tell Ravan to stop all this or he will end up in a mess when he committed all these attrocities? If Vibhishan had spoken to Ravan about this (I think he might have) Ravan did not heed his words even then. Vibhishan might have suggested that he do penance to repent for his sins and to remove the curses laid on him. But Ravan might have been too full of lust and longing for other pleasures that he might have ignored all this. Or probably he thought that no curse can ever affect him - I have wondered whehter he ever took any curse or warning seriously. Even when everything pointed towards the fact that Ram would kill him he never took it seriously at all.
Vibhishan was the only one who constantly pestered him to return Sita to Ram. If Ravan had not kicked him out, Vibhishan too would have fought for Ravan and lost his life. It was the humiliation in Ravan's court that made Vibhishan go to Ram - the views about Vibhishan's doing had been discussed already and hence I am not posting it all again here. Anyone who wants to read it can refer this link:
That said about Kumbhkaran and Indrajeet - why didnt Ravan's elders speak against him when he was so attrocious. His father for instance. Maybe Sage Visravas washed his hands over Ravan and the others were not brave enough to speak to him about it face to face.
I think I am deviating too much. I can go on like this - but my point is Indrajeet did support his father at all times even when he was on the wrong path and that brought about his destruction.
Kumbhkaran did not have much time - he was woken up and immediately sent to battle. Though he did not approve what his brother did, he stayed on Ravan's side. I do feel sorry for him. In the animated verison of Ramayan, Ram says to Vibhishan that he is sorry to that Kumbhkaran had to die by his hands and he wished that he knew him as a friend.
I hope this reply was not too vague.

Vibs

Excellent points. Proves the point I was making - that it was impossible to kill Ravan w/o killing the other 2. But had Rama gotten the opportunity to kill Ravan independently of Kumbhakarna & Indrajit, he would have, and then it would have been up to Indrajit to decide whether or not to return Sita.

Kumbhakarna disagreed with Ravan's decision, but stopped at that - never suggested that his loyalty would depend on that. Indrajit supported Ravan's going to war with Rama, but was more equivocal about whether Sita should or shouldn't be returned. He probably belonged to the school that said that the father was never to be questioned.

Also, in fairness to Ravan, he didn't have a clean choice either - he had to return Sita and seek refuge in Rama - the latter a clear poison pill probably designed to ensure that it be rejected - no self respecting ruler could have accepted it. In other words, had Ravan sent Sita over with, say Trijata, to Rama with a message, "Okay, here's your wife, now get lost and leave us Rakshashas alone", that would not have prevented Rama from going to war with him. So given that reality, what Indrajit did was the right thing.

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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Ram was both angry and sad; when Vibhishana brings Sita in a palaquin , the vanars and rakshasas vie with each other to get one glimpse of Ma Sita and in this process the rakshas soldiers start beating up Vanars at this Ram asks Vibhishana to stop rakshas soldiers from beating up vanaras and instucts Sita to come walking, this instruction was in a very unusual harsh tone and all people who hear this are taken aback; that means he was angry.
Sita when puts her case after Rama tries to disown her saying that she was free to go anywhere she liked ; Sita says that Rama was accusing her fasely because he was committed to anger and thus acting worst than a common man (Laghuvena manushya)
Ram has nothing to say to Sita's counter arguments; he doesn't turn away his face as sensationalized in serial but his face is fixed on the ground with eyes full of tears (Adhomukham tato Ramam), He was angry yet sad having to put his beloved, chaste wife put all through this even knowing that she was innocent.
Ram is both angry and sad -in a turmoil not confused.



Thanks Ananya, I still wish we had a little more about Ram's mental make-up at that time.
Another question, Ananya do you know Sanskrit? I just started the learning process in Sanksrit and I am curious because you post so many things from the original Sanskrit. Just curious, that is all.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Interesting question,Chandraketu.
The fact that Vibhishan told Ravan not to fight Ram because he was a mere mortal is new to me. Was it really mentioned that way in any version of Ramayan? (Just my doubt - please don't take offence).
The case of Ravan winning Ram depends on the circumstances - only if Ravan was righteous and came to fight Ram for any wrong that he (Ram) committed would have made Ravan victorious. This was something that would have never happened.
If Ravan had come to take Sita away and fought Ram and Lakshman in a straight battle - I don't think he would have won unless he resorts to a complete unrighteous war - using his magic to the fullest. If Ravan had brought some of his sons, generals, brothers, it would have been a tough war but Ram would have won in the end (provided that the war was fought in the proper way). Please don't mistake me - I do not say that Ram could be defeated. I just say that Ram could never be defeated if the war was waged in the righteous way. But if it was otherwise, there is a chance that Ram could have been stunned momentarily and Ravan could have taken Sita away at that time too.
If Ravan had brought an army with him along with his best warriors, then Ram could have had some trouble but it wouldn't last long - Ram had already wiped out Khar,Dushan, their generals and the army of 14,000. He could have done it again.
If Ravan had come to avenge his sister's disfiguring, then too, he would have ben defeated. Shurpanakha was at fault for going after a married man who was not interested in her and it was only when she came to kill Sita, Lakshman cut off her nose and ears.
But if Ravan had heard about Ram and came just to wage a war with him (prpbably to match his might) - the war could have raged on and on. (I am not saying that Ram and Ravan were evenly matched but just that both of them were mighty warriors.) But in the end, I think Ram would have won - being a human was a reason and being a better man than Ravanis another reason.
No offence meant, I had just given my views. I hope it doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.

Vibs

No offense. No, what I was refering to above was the episode where Shurpanakha runs crying to Ravan, and where Shurpanakha and Akampana narrate to Ravan the carnage caused by Rama in Janasthana. In that, when Ravan resolves to go to battle Rama, Akampana dissuades him by saying that winning against Rama wouldn't bring him glory, but losing would definitely bring him disgrace. That was the point Vibhishan agreed with. Vibhishan too didn't doubt (I'm talking the serial, not Valmiki) that Ravan could defeat Rama, and Mandodari was angry with Shurpanakha that because of her, Ravan was doubting his own bravery by going with her schemes.

I tend to agree with you - and disagree with the serial's Vibhishan & Mandodari - that Ravan couldn't have defeated Rama even if he didn't commit the sin of abducting Sita.

Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Vibs

Excellent points. Proves the point I was making - that it was impossible to kill Ravan w/o killing the other 2. But had Rama gotten the opportunity to kill Ravan independently of Kumbhakarna & Indrajit, he would have, and then it would have been up to Indrajit to decide whether or not to return Sita.

Kumbhakarna disagreed with Ravan's decision, but stopped at that - never suggested that his loyalty would depend on that. Indrajit supported Ravan's going to war with Rama, but was more equivocal about whether Sita should or shouldn't be returned. He probably belonged to the school that said that the father was never to be questioned.

Also, in fairness to Ravan, he didn't have a clean choice either - he had to return Sita and seek refuge in Rama - the latter a clear poison pill probably designed to ensure that it be rejected - no self respecting ruler could have accepted it. In other words, had Ravan sent Sita over with, say Trijata, to Rama with a message, "Okay, here's your wife, now get lost and leave us Rakshashas alone", that would not have prevented Rama from going to war with him. So given that reality, what Indrajit did was the right thing.

Again, I agree with you Chandraketu. First of all, a proper human being wouldn't hae taken Sita away like that. Once done, there was no going back without ultimate disgrace. People would have said that Ravan was not brave enough.
What I meant was that why didn't they stop Ravan before doing it. Ravan did announce that he was going to bring Sita to Lanka, didn't he? Atleast then Indrajeet could have said 'Give me permission - I'll finish them off or I'll come with you and we can defeat them together."
It is true that once he had done it there was no way he could have returned Sita without ruining his self respect.
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Mandodari



Thanks Ananya, I still wish we had a little more about Ram's mental make-up at that time.
Another question, Ananya do you know Sanskrit? I just started the learning process in Sanksrit and I am curious because you post so many things from the original Sanskrit. Just curious, that is all.

Thanks Ananya for explaining.
Ram was angry with the demons pushing off the vanars who were trying to catch a glimpse of Sita Devi and he instructs Vibhishan to let Sita walk to him.
But during the Agni Pravesha, as described by you, Ram's eyes were downcast and full of tears. This may indicate sadness, but anger? Sorry - I am still confused whether Ram was angry when Sita entered the fire. All the translations I had read said that he was sad and his eyes were full of tears.
ananyacool thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Mandodari


Thanks Ananya, I still wish we had a little more about Ram's mental make-up at that time.
Another question, Ananya do you know Sanskrit? I just started the learning process in Sanksrit and I am curious because you post so many things from the original Sanskrit. Just curious, that is all.

😊 u're welcome
(I used to take Sanskrit class while at school but had to discontinue, now I've taken up learning Sanskrit again by self study through the internet. I am not an expert, just quote which I understand)
There's a verse which mentions Ram's mental state before Agni-pravesha scene.
When Hanuman tells Ram that Ma Sita was waiting to see Ram , Valmiki mentions that Ram was in very troubled state and Ram is said to have overcome with emotions and sheds tears. He restlessly moves to and fro taking audible breadth and with tears in his eyes ; he instructs Vibhishana to get Sita properly bathed, dressed and bejewelled , this he tells even without looking at Vibhishana's face.
Valmiki mentions that he was in a very troubled state of mind.
I had read english translation of Tamil scholar Hari Krishna ( on agnipravesha episode) on the site http://www.harimozhi.com not sure whether this site works now.
400!!👍🏼
Edited by ananyacool - 16 years ago
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Vibs

No offense. No, what I was refering to above was the episode where Shurpanakha runs crying to Ravan, and where Shurpanakha and Akampana narrate to Ravan the carnage caused by Rama in Janasthana. In that, when Ravan resolves to go to battle Rama, Akampana dissuades him by saying that winning against Rama wouldn't bring him glory, but losing would definitely bring him disgrace. That was the point Vibhishan agreed with. Vibhishan too didn't doubt (I'm talking the serial, not Valmiki) that Ravan could defeat Rama, and Mandodari was angry with Shurpanakha that because of her, Ravan was doubting his own bravery by going with her schemes.

I tend to agree with you - and disagree with the serial's Vibhishan & Mandodari - that Ravan couldn't have defeated Rama even if he didn't commit the sin of abducting Sita.

Shurpanakha came in with a false report. Maybe that's why Vibhishan didn't doubt Ravan could be victorious (in this serial). I too agree that getting defated at that point would have brought shame on Ravan. She omitted the fact that she was the one who provoked the two brothers by trying to kill Sita and she was the one who wanted Ram or Lakshman for herself.
I am reminded of Angad's speech in Kambaramayan when he meets Ravan offering the last chance of peace. The speech was awesome and it was really colourful 😉. Perhaps I can translate it when I get some free time.
chen2chic thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Vibs

Excellent description. However, I must have one of my rare disagreements with you on one point..................................................................

Does anybody actually think that Mandodari & Vibhishan was right, and that if Ravan had gone there with just Indrajit (to take on Lakshman), Shurpanakha (to abduct Sita) and a few more warriors, like, say, Atikaya, that Rama would have prevailed against them? In other words, was the abduction of Sita (aside from fulfilling Vedavati's curse) a necessary pre-requisite for Rama to be victorious against Ravan?

I'd think that Rama being a mortal would be enough, but I'm interested to hear how many think Ravan would have prevailed, particularly since he did suffer defeats in the past, including a stalemate with Rama's ancestor Mandhata.

My response may be backlogging a bit, but nonetheless.
Firstly Vibs & Chandra, thanks for the wonderful analysis and discussion from the two of you. (and somebody said they missed this discussion😉)
Reg. this question if Rama would have prevailed if Ravana had gone along with few chosen men to do the task- I feel it might have been difficult for Rama to prevail, since Ravan would have definitely taken the aid of Vali then. And Vali, too, would have helped him since he himself had taken away another's wife. And if Vali & Rama came face to face, as per Vali's boon, half of the strength of his opponent is transferred to him, so chances for Rama would have been meek.
Probably Rama did not hand over Lanka to Kuber since he thought Vibeeshan was worthy of such a city as Lanka. And as such Kuber was satisfied with his city on the Mandara mountain in the north near Kailas. He being the Lord of North direction found more prosperity there than in Lanka, and hence may be he too might have refused to go back to Lanka. (my assumption)
Though killing Indrajit & Kumbhakaran was not mandatory to kill Ravan, it would have happened that way, bcoz Ravan would not have been allowed to face Ram right at the beginning of the war. And unless I&K were killed, Ravan would not have appeared on the battle field. But, if Ravan was not helpless(without arms) the first time he appears in the battlefield, Ram may have killed him. Ravan lived that day only to DIE ANOTHER DAY...ha ha..
Edited by chen2chic - 16 years ago
Vibhishna thumbnail
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Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: chen2chic

Firstly Vibs & Chandra, thanks for the wonderful analysis and discussion from the two of you. (and somebody said they missed this discussion😉)
Reg. this question if Rama would have prevailed if Ravana had gone along with few chosen men to do the task. I feel it might have been difficult for Rama to prevail, since Ravan would have definitely taken the aid of Vali then. And Vali, too, would have helped him since he himself had taken away another's wife. And if Vali & Rama came face to face, as per Vali's boon, half of the strength of his opponent is transferred to him, so chances for Rama would have been meek.
Probably Rama did not hand over Lanka to Kuber since he thought Vibeeshan was worthy of such a city as Lanka. And as such Kuber was satisfied with his city on the Mandara mountain in the north near Kailas. He being the Lord of North direction found more prosperity there than in Lanka, and hence may be he too might have refused to go back to Lanka. (my assumption)
Though killing Indrajit & Kumbhakaran was not mandatory to kill Ravan, it would have happened that way, bcoz Ravan would not have been allowed to face Ram right at the beginning of the war. And unless I&K were killed, Ravan would not have appeared on the battle field. But, if Ravan was not helpless(without arms) the first time he appears in the battlefield, Ram may have killed him. Ravan lived that day only to DIE ANOTHER DAY...ha ha..

Deepa ji, I was caught up with too much work and hence I couldn't concentrate on anything else. I'm actually stealing some time now to post here. I couldn't keep away from these discussions. 😉
I completely forgot about Vali being nearby. Thanks for reminding me - Great presence of mind. 👏👏👏
Its true that Vali (and Angad) could have come to his aid and automatically Hanuman and the others could have gone to Ram's aid. If Ravan was defeated, he could have sent for his friend and Vali would have come to help him. Though the chances were meek, only a pure soul more virtuous and righteous than Ram could have defeated him. Though it would have been a tough battle, Ram would have still been victorious.
Ram had offered Vibhishan the kingdom even before the war started. This probably was a sign of friendship and a gesture that he was waging the war only for Sita and not to annex Lanka. Probably Ram felt that Vibhishan would trust him more if he made it clear that he had nothing against Lanka or its people but just wanted his wife back. That way Vibhishan too would have felt comfortable that he was just against the attrocities of his brother and not against Lanka itself. And He could not refuse it when Ram gave Lanka to Vibhishan as it would have rude to decline an gift from a friend and the one he came to surrender.
I have a doubt - did Ravan fight with Kuber and capture Lanka or did Kuber give it up for his brother's sake? In the serial 'Jai Hanuman', it was shown as if Kuber went away from Lanka peacefully graciously giving it up for Ravan when Kekasi asked (or rather was angry with him for owning Lanka) for it (You are enjoying Lanka and my son has nothing) and Ravan was dteremined to fight him for it. Sage Visravas was helpless - couldn't speak for any side but was sad that Kuber gave up Lanka.
And yes, you are right about Kuber already settled elsewhere. Lanka had belonged to demons and probably Ram thought he can give it to a better ruler.

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