Maya Mehrotra? - Page 9

Originally posted by: krystal_watz

For all people placing the 'Feminism' argument here, I'll try and elaborate all in a last-ditch attempt to explain where this argument falters.

Feminism means 'equality between the genders', sure. But in a society where women are still oppressed and considered secondary to men in every way and manner; can such a equality be made to exist in its truest sense?

If a man is discovered naked on the streets, society would make fun of him for a few days and then forget it. But if a woman gets raped and violated, she's punished for it her whole life. Her very existence is made into a living hell. Heck, even the suspicion of 'immodesty' can make people perceive her as 'damaged goods'.

In such a society, you CANNOT be supporting 'ripping a woman's clothes because she did something wrong'. Such an action translates into gender violence simply because the existing power dynamics in the society is so skewed in favour of the male gender.

Let an example suffice. In the United States, Black people can go around calling each other the 'N'-word freely, but NOT Whites or non-Black people. Why is that so? After all, all races are supposed to be equal, right? If Black people can use terms such as 'Rednecks' and 'White Trash' , then why can't White people do the same?

They can't. Because of the existing history of violent oppression and inhumane treatment of Black people in the 19th century. Racism continues to be a huge issue in the States to this day, what with a majority of American prison inmates being Black people and incidents of white cops shooting at unarmed black men and children. Power relations are skewed here. Therefore, Black people can say the words "White Trash", but White people cannot say "n****r".

The point I'm trying to make by using this example is, that you CANNOT treat two groups 'equally' in every freaking sense, when one group has traditionally been less powerful than the other. Women have historically been treated as inferior to men; they still are. Therefore, 'ripping a man's clothes apart' and 'ripping apart a woman's clothes' are not and CANNOT be viewed in the same manner. So, arguments like 'What if Maya had been a man' are null. I repeat, NULL.

Maya or anybody else is not a single individual in this context; when you're part of a less privileged group, every individual becomes a unit of that group.

Well put forth and I agree with everything you have written here.
I think what some of us are telling you aren't getting it or may be we aren't being articulate enough. Anyhow, let me speak for myself, I am a feminist of equalist sub-type as these days there are so many feminists with different ideologies. People fought for decades and still fighting for women's right and as a a result we have so many laws today made for upholding women rights which are basically human rights.
Now if a woman who is previliged enough to be benefited of all the women rights, misuses these very rights for her ulterior motives then isn't it wrong? When there are a large chunk of women who are yet to experience their rights, the misusage of these rights by previlaged women then it's as same as patriarchy, chauvinism etc. These things too came into existence because men started misusing the previlages they got biologically.
What Maya is doing here exactly the same thing, misusing the femisim and if a able legal system can establish that then Ayan wouldn't be and must not be charged for sexual assault instead should be charged just for the assault. There is a lot of difference between sexual assault and assault, what Ayana did was assault not sexual assault. Yes, assaulting a woman usually falls under sexual assault but if it's proved that a woman misused the law for her benefit then such charges automatically change into assault.

Originally posted by: Actomyo

Well put forth and I agree with everything you have written here.
I think what some of us are telling you aren't getting it or may be we aren't being articulate enough. Anyhow, let me speak for myself, I am a feminist of equalist sub-type as these days there are so many feminists with different ideologies. People fought for decades and still fighting for women's right and as a a result we have so many laws today made for upholding women rights which are basically human rights.
Now if a woman who is previliged enough to be benefited of all the women rights, misuses these very rights for her ulterior motives then isn't it wrong? When there are a large chunk of women who are yet to experience their rights, the misusage of these rights by previlaged women then it's as same as patriarchy, chauvinism etc. These things too came into existence because men started misusing the previlages they got biologically.
What Maya is doing here exactly the same thing, misusing the femisim and if a able legal system can establish that then Ayan wouldn't be and must not be charged for sexual assault instead should be charged just for the assault. There is a lot of difference between sexual assault and assault, what Ayana did was assault not sexual assault. Yes, assaulting a woman usually falls under sexual assault but if it's proved that a woman misused the law for her benefit then such charges automatically change into assault.

Originally posted by: krystal_watz

I agree completely. If Maya had torn off Ayan's pant, then it would've come under the ambit of sexual attack (regardless of the intention, mind you).

But STILL, it would not be as big a deal as the reverse. That's because, again, a 'woman's sexual chastity' is a much bigger deal for the society.

Bold and Underlined: It's easy to opine that in a virtual forum. But in reality, it'll take decades of social evolution for people to actually advance up to the point where women's sexuality and bodies are not such touchy subjects for society; where women are not called 's**ts' and 'wh**es; at the slightest suspicion of impropriety, and most importantly, where women are treated as 'human beings' and not objects.

Till then, we'll have to be mindful of ground realities. Deep-rooted social conventions take eons to be erased and phased out; we'll have to give them that much of time.

As for the example of the coal miner, you didn't understand the point of the allegory. I wasn't pointing to any violence there; rather, I was commenting on the absurdity of practicing an 'equality' which would be completely unfair to a particular section of the society. Some people are not allowed to be 'equal' to others in the society, so we have to be lenient towards the underprivileged sections. We cannot demand 'equality' in cases where one section has a clear disadvantage over the other. THAT was the point.

Sorry to butt in.
The equality idea of feminism is to achieve equality between the genders. In your example of coal miner and millioner, the idea of feminism is to make the coal miner able enough to be equal to the millioners and then hold the competition of buying a Ferrari between them.
Incase of Maya, she is that coal miner who is already equal to the millioner, plus she is misusing the means which are there for empowering other coal miners like her. So it's a disservice to the cause of empowering coal miners because now people/system/law will fear what if all coal miners become like Maya one day.
While we have to keep our fights afloat for so many coal miners to empower, same time we need to nip the maya like coal miners, so that the really in need coal miners don't get deprived of their rights.

Originally posted by: krystal_watz

I did get the point that you guys are making.

Yes, Ayan is being framed by Maya (this point is still dicey though; subject to the unfolding of the story). This, if we consider the complaint as a fake one, is definitely a misuse of privilege by Maya. There's no debating that.

Should the rape complaint turn out to be false, then Maya should get the severest punishment. No debate here either.

However, I was ONLY and ONLY focusing on the 'tearing clothes' part. Ayan might not have intended to rape her; correct. He may have also torn her clothes to get the keys and for nothing else. But still, that was inappropriate. Ayan tearing Maya's clothes was inappropriate EVEN IF HE DIDN'T HAVE SEXUAL INTENT.

THIS had been my point all along. Maya should be punished if she's faking rape, but even then Ayan is guilty of sexual harassment simply because he tore her clothes deliberately although he might not have had sexual intent. Tearing clothes itself is molestation, right? Regardless of the reason you're doing so.

Legal point of view yes, tearing clothes of a woman falls under molestation regardless of the intent. But, as personal opinion I don't completely agree with such black and white law, there should be clauses to it, in order to stop the misuse. Anyhow a lot of women's law are misused for various purposes by women and men(by using women) alike.
The point here a few of us are making is not in the context of law, it's the personal opinion, a discussion that how such things can be misused just because they are in favor of women. People can discuss right for or against such things even if it's a law. Its just that some of us feel just because Maya is a woman, Ayaan is being judged differently (if his intention indeed wasn't rape) of a crime which otherwise is dealt diffently. Neither anybody is condoning Ayaan's manhandling nor anyone is supporting Maya being manhandled or raped (if true) just because she is evil.

Originally posted by: Actomyo

Legal point of view yes, tearing clothes of a woman falls under molestation regardless of the intent. But, as personal opinion I don't completely agree with such black and white law, there should be clauses to it, in order to stop the misuse. Anyhow a lot of women's law are misused for various purposes by women and men(by using women) alike.
The point here a few of us are making is not in the context of law, it's the personal opinion, a discussion that how such things can be misused just because they are in favor of women. People can discuss right for or against such things even if it's a law. Its just that some of us feel just because Maya is a woman, Ayaan is being judged differently (if his intention indeed wasn't rape) of a crime which otherwise is dealt diffently. Neither anybody is condoning Ayaan's manhandling nor anyone is supporting Maya being manhandled or raped (if true) just because she is evil.

Originally posted by: Actomyo

Sorry to butt in.
The equality idea of feminism is to achieve equality between the genders. In your example of coal miner and millioner, the idea of feminism is to make the coal miner able enough to be equal to the millioners and then hold the competition of buying a Ferrari between them.
Incase of Maya, she is that coal miner who is already equal to the millioner, plus she is misusing the means which are there for empowering other coal miners like her. So it's a disservice to the cause of empowering coal miners because now people/system/law will fear what if all coal miners become like Maya one day.
While we have to keep our fights afloat for so many coal miners to empower, same time we need to nip the maya like coal miners, so that the really in need coal miners don't get deprived of their rights.

Originally posted by: ---Khushi---

Hi...I beg to differ here...is the responsibility of maintaining a woman's self respect & modesty only with a male, that too with a male, who the concerned woman has wronged?????...does it not first & foremost lie with the woman herself?????

Tomorrow if a female thief breaks into my house, n my husband while attempting to catch her, only manages to tear off one of her sleeves, he should be accused of molestation & sexual harassment!??😲...coz he should have first thought how women are the oppressed gender in this patriarchal society?...& then probably let her go without attempting to catch her at all?...frankly, I find this thought process & this line of thinking most ridiculous.

If a female has decided to break into houses, she is automatically well prepared mentally for this eventuality...so even on moral grounds, this won't be wrong, IMO...as long as there was no sexual intent on the part of the male...