~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 24

Originally posted by: NoraSM

The way Dury refused to believe that 13 years are over, I Think their plan was sending them on exile again because terms were that if they are recognized during agyaywas, they have to start again

Anyway, My main point was that Arjuna's exile period is more descriptive in the years he spent, where and doing what?

Yes but that could never be an assureity. It was their luck that Keechak episode happened and they get an idea about the whereabouts. Hiding for one month is not very difficult.

So Arjun, Bheem, Yudi etc negotiate deals

Van Yatra or Dury+Karna'sVijay Yatra

Jaidrath attack

All couldn't happen within 12 month

Aside as I mentioned the point that Bheeshm admits that 13 years and 5 months in lunal calendar, is something very specific and technical to be ignored

For Arjun's exile, I do tend to believe that it was for 12 years, but as HearMeRoar says that the summary mentions 13 months (for dice hall it's unanimously 13 years, an entire chapter based on Ramayana for this)

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

Karna's digvijay was taken out of CE. Highly likely to be interpolation.

It is not mentioned in Ghosh Parva for sure where it is there KMG

The Digvijay(or win) across is although mentioned multiple times later even in CE.

The Drona Parva and Karna Parva have both Dhritrashtra mentioning how Karna had won all(lists down)

Bheeshm Parva has Bheeshm saying that Karna might have defeated combods, Himalaya, Kirat etc.)

If CE had to actually specify that Digvijay didn't happen, these mentions would have also been removed by them, but for some reasons they didn't

Aside for the majority stated to support Kauravas there had to be certain reason, how would they support an usurper over their actual Samrat in exile unless someone has subdued them to support Kauravas.

To be honest, Karna is a very strange character when it comes to his valour. Either he is the best and is capable to even defeat Bheeshm and Arjun combined, or he is someone very ordinary not able to defeat anyone. I think it is somewhere in between, there is exaggeration from both sides.

As Nora rightly pointed out majority states under Indraprasth would have had no loyalty towards Yudhishtir who was not a king, forget Samrat(on papers he still was but not for any practical purpose). They would have had no issues in getting subdued to Duryodhan (his representative Karna). Biggest example being Trigatha, being Duryodhan's friend (not sure but i heard somewhere that they were friends, so Duryodhan asked him for his sacrifice), Shusharma would have anyday preferred Kauravas denomination over Pandavas (especially when they are practically commoners) yet apparently they had a huge fight with Karna and Karna defeated them single handedly. Does this add up?? Definitely Trigatha would have been more than happy to come under Hastinapur) Duryodhan. The fight even if happened at all would have been just an eyewash

Then there would have been kingdoms who were genuinely loyal to Pandavas, Karna did win over them, but these kingdoms weren't big or very powerful, they had been defeated by Pandavas just a decade back.

However Karna did go out to win more states for Duryodhan, since Bheeshm, Sanjay(excluding Dhritrashtra here since he could be biased towards his army man)do mention his valour. He definitely won over Kirat, Kambojs etc and somewhere in South

Most probably the area Duryodhan ruled directly+indirectly was bigger than that of Yudhishtir

Probably the win could be of lesser number of states. He definitely didn't win the world for Duryodhan as KMG says. I am pretty sure he didn't defeat Dwarika (he would have throughout blabbered about it had he done that) Panchal was also not defeated, Drupad agreed to march with Kuru army (alliance not subdued) Matasya was definitely a free state. Ghatochkach n his areas weren't defeated. I am sure even Madra wasn't else there was no need to fake act n get their alliance

I think it was not 22 but he did win 12-13 new kingdoms and subdued most of the erstwhile Indraprasth kingdom vassals under Duryodhan.

Now this could either be in Digvijay, or he just went to defeat any resentment, win over new loyalties when time was felt right could be a matter of dispute

Anyhow if Digvijay didn't happen then the only things which happened in Vanparva were negotiations

Lets talk about the yagyas first. There are three major yagyas, that are important for any king

Lowest in the order is Rajasuya. Rajsuya proclaims a kings independence. That he is a king in his own right and not a vassal of anybody. To do this yagya a king or his army led by commanders has to physically fight all major kingdoms in the region and defeat them. Specially those kingdoms that have ancestral hereditary right to rule.

Please note Rajasuya proclaims independence of a King. It does not make a king emperor. Look at the name itself.

Yudhishtir had to do a Rajasuya to proclaim his independence from Kuru as a family and establish his and his descendents right to rule Indraprasth forever from then on. Pandavas became Pandavas legally from here, independent of Kouravas.

Only after you become an independent king by defeating everyone and collecting money at the threat of sword to fill your coffers for one time. You get the right to become an emperor. You are not an emperor yet.

There is an inbetween Yagya called Ashwamedha. In Ashwamedha you send your horse with an army to every kingdom. Any teritorry the horse wanders without resistance becomes your vassal. After Ashwamedha a King gets the right to use the army of his Vassal in his battles. But that is all. After Ashwamedha, wherever the horse was not resisted, that Kingdom will not be fought with and that kingdom will fight with you against your allies. Letting go the horse free is like swearing an oath of friendship and fealty.

But this oath is only sworn for that one particular King and not his descendents. So if Rama did Ashwamedha then Oath is made only for Rama, not for his brothers or his sons luv kush.

Third most important one that is done only by an emperor is Vajpeya. With Vajpeya yagya A king becomes an emperor. His descendents become heir to his empire. He gets the right to appoint kings under his dominion or remove anyone he wants to. He is also paid annual taxes by all the kingdoms in his dominions. All the armies will report to his command and cannot even fight with each other.

So lets assume Yudhishtir did Vajpeya and became an emperor then magadha led by Jarasandh and dwarka led by Krishna become his dominion, they have to forget their enmity. They cant fight with each other anymore. Once an Emperor does Vajpeya all the kingdoms lose their independence amd merge to form the empire.. Again the person doing ashwamedha becomes greatest king amongst kings. He does not become emperor. The title is Rajadhiraja. It is not Samrat

The last emperor to do Vajpeya was Bharata. After Bharata there has been no emperor of India. On whose name India is called Bharat. And thiS Bharat is the Jain Bharat son of Rishabhnath. Not the shakuntala wala bharat. Asoka was the next one closest, but he could not conquer the south. British were the next one after Bharat and they gave this land the name India.

This chronology and status of Yagya and rules governing it has been referenced in Harivansh. And Bhagvatham and Chandogya Upanishad as well as Shatapata brahman which is the most detailed text on these yagyas.

Rama stopped with Ashwamedha. Yudhishtir did Rajasuya after establishing Indraprasth to proclaim his independence. He did Ashwamedha after the war. That is it. He or Rama were not in a position to remove the kings of all the kingdoms and merge them into their empire. So they never became emperor.

So after Rajasuya please note that Yudhishtir only became an independent king. He did not form any military alliance of kingdoms that had to fight for him, whom Karna subjugated and got on his side.. No such thing happened. Below is the list of kingdoms that fought. All of them fought because of marital relations or to settle.personal scores. Everyone came willingly. No one was coerced as an obligation

These were for Kouravas:

1. Kingdoms from eastern India brought by Karna (Vanga, Pundra, Sushama). They were part of same family group Anavas and most likely were Karna sasural
2. Sindhu (Jayadrath married to Duasala)
3. Gandhar(Gandhari married to Dhritarashtr)
4. Trigartha (Duryodhan's best friend)
5. Kalinga (Duryodhan's second wife) were related to Kauravas by marriage.
6. Bahlika kings were childhood friends of Kauravas and also cousins (they were pandavas cousins too, but they chose kauravas)
7. Pragjyotishpur and few other naga and rakshasa kingdoms with enmity to either pandava or krishna also joined kauravas.
8. Shalya an ally of Pandava was tricked into fighting for them when he accidentally accepted their hospitality. However Indonesian MB has him having three daughters, one married to Dury, one to Karna and one to balram
9. Bhoja Yadava with kritavarma as general to settle his score with Satyaki and family and hurt Krishna if an opportunity arrived as a revenge for killing his brother
10. Narayani Sena of Krishna most likely to recompense for Krishna's son samba's forcible abduction and marriage of Duryodhan's daughter

Same.story on Pandavas side.

1. Panchal (Draupadi)
2. Matsya (Abhimanyu's wife uttara)
3. Chedi (Nakul's wife Karenumati, as well as one wife of bhima),
4. Magadh (Sahdev's wife name.not.known),
5. Kashi (Bhim's wife Balandhara),
6. Raksahsa from Ghatothkach's tribe, (Bhim's wife Hidimba)
7. Nagas from Iravan/ Kauravya tribe (Arjun's wife Uloopi)
8. Krishna and Satyaki with his Sini army
9. Pandya king (Arjun's one wife was Pandya princess)
10. Kekaya kings joined Pandavas as they were their cousins and their step brothers who were rivals too joined Kauravas

Digvijaya is only collecting money at the threat of sword. Nothing else.

Your best commander goes to the rich kingdoms and says either give me money or fight me. Its like the modern day Hafta vasooli.

Thanks for the detailed response. So Yudhishtir wasn't Samrat at the time of Game of Dice?? Isn't he referred so?

Why did he then summon everyone in the closing ceremony? Many kings gifted him money then. Aside what was the reason to kill Jarasangh if it was only meant at establishing state autonomy? Why would Jarasangh have any objection to it? It would actually be good for him that the Kuru strength has decreased by half. Aside Duryodhan had been quite contended with the partition, it was only after the Rajsuya that he got jealous, how did Rajsuya made Yudhishtir any better than what he was to become after Dhritrashtra's death

From what I have read Digvijay is just a fear mongering, expressing the ones something like "Sun le is desh me ek hi gunda ho sakta hai aur wo apunich hai, jitna paisa maangu chup chaap de de, jab bolun chup chap apni military lekar puhunch jaana, warna to tu jaanta hi hai, kya hoga.... Sorry for the words, just was trying to be jovial

Anyway our discussion was if the exile after the Game of Dice could have been only for 13 months. Your inputs in it

Originally posted by: Chiillii

Digvijaya is only collecting money at the threat of sword. Nothing else.

Your best commander goes to the rich kingdoms and says either give me money or fight me. Its like the modern day Hafta vasooli.

That fits whatsisname's character.

What about Pandu then? I thought Anga came under Hatsinapuri rule because of his digvijay.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

That fits whatsisname's character.

What about Pandu then? I thought Anga came under Hatsinapuri rule because of his digvijay.

Anga is actually not mentioned as a part of his Digvijay campaign

Maybe Pandu defeated Adhirath's brother in a separate battle and annexed Anga completely

@Chiillii off the topic you called Shusharma as the best friend of Duryodhan.

Ashwathama (as per epic he is still alive) and Karna(in the Sun as per the epic) would be thinking to commit suicide. 🤣

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

Yes but that could never be an assureity. It was their luck that Keechak episode happened and they get an idea about the whereabouts. Hiding for one month is not very difficult.

So Arjun, Bheem, Yudi etc negotiate deals

Van Yatra or Dury+Karna'sVijay Yatra

Jaidrath attack

All couldn't happen within 12 month

Aside as I mentioned the point that Bheeshm admits that 13 years and 5 months in lunal calendar, is something very specific and technical to be ignored

For Arjun's exile, I do tend to believe that it was for 12 years, but as HearMeRoar says that the summary mentions 13 months (for dice hall it's unanimously 13 years, an entire chapter based on Ramayana for this)

Its not that I have a doubt on dice hall exile being 13 years long, I was just saying that what happened in those 12 years in Pandava context (Negotiations) and last one year with only one incident makes me feel that probability of Arjuna's exile being of 12 years is more, how do you explain Arjuna traveling then staying with Chitra till she has a son (9 months) then going to southern ocean, coming back to Manipur then going to Gokarna, Karnataka (South West), then he traveled to Prabhas Patan, Gujarat, Krishna came here to meet him, they had fun there for a few days then they went to Dwarka on a vehicle, after this Arjuna married Subhadra amd stayed in Dwarka for one year, he spent last year of his exile in Pushkar

Even if I turn all these years into month, I am not getting 13 months, Even on horseback the roads weren't like today, they didn't know their way, they didn't travel during night both horse and rider needed rest multiple times during their travel in day. One more important part of traveling with horse is easily changing it, if the horse broke his shoe or got hurt, which wouldn't have been possible for Arjuna

All in all, Its not that I don't believe his exile was of 13 months, I am ready to believe everything, but its just difficult for me to believe that so much happened in one year of Arjuna's exile and only Keechak incident in full one year incognito

Arjuna's exile is 12 years

Dice hall exile was 13 years

So the summary mentions, 13 months of exile for Arjuna, this 13 number is in dice hall exile, I am just saying that there's possibility of Dice Hall exile being of 13 months

Again, I am not saying it wasn't 13 years long, I won't even tell someone who says Arjuna's exile was 12 years or 13 months, I believe everything

^^ oh ok got your point

But why would the post dice hall exile be called Arjun's exile, that was mainly Yudhishtir and Krishnaa's exile right