~| Whatever you want to argue about |~ - Page 26

Originally posted by: Poorabhforever

But why??

Actually Chilli gave a good explanation in other thread

1) Bheeshm knew that Karna was Kunti's child and it's clear that Kaneen children and their mothers weren't respected in the society. Now think of it, what opinion would Bheeshm actually have had of Kunti?? Wouldn't he think her to a woman of lose character? Why would he want the children of the woman of a lose character (only hers remember they weren't the children Pandu biologically) on the throne

2) The birth of Pandavas can not be compared with the birth of Dhritrashtra/Pandu as many people wrongly do because firstly Ambhika and Ambalika weren't woman of lose character, secondly Dhritrashtra and Pandu were still Satyavati's biological grandchildren since Vyas was her son(Bheeshm's oath was to ensure that Satyavati's lineage is on throne, he didn't say that Satyavati+Shantanu kids would take over), Pandavas on the other hand were only legal lineage of Satyavati and lastly while Satyavati asked for Bheeshm's permission before sending her DILs to Vyas, Kunti+Madri did it without his permission.

Now tell me who would be preferred by Bheeshm here? Pandu's Kshetraj son by a woman of lose character or Dhritrashtra's biological son by a chaste woman (chaste and characterless not by reality, but by just how Bheeshm would view them)

3) Duryodhan was born in front of Bheeshm, he was among the ones to raise him since birth, Pandavas joined him at the age of around 7-8. For whom would one feel more? Just think of it.

4)Did it ever occur to you why Duryodhan always thought that the kingdom belonged to him? Why he was so staunch against Pandavas since childhood?? Someone has to instill this feeling into him right. Who would have done that? Shakuni? Was Bheeshm so stupid that he would let a person who is spoiling his grandson stay in his territory? And despite Dhritrashtra being the king till this time Bheeshm held great power

5) Karna knew that Kunti was his mother (he says this to Krishnaji when the latter approaches him) who would have told him. Especially since Bheeshm knew it? And when did he get to know about it- Was it at Pandavas childhood? This would actually give a reason why he hated Pandavas so much.

6) Could Duryodhan, a kid plan out for the Poisoning of another kid and no one including Bheeshm getting to know about it? Bheeshm wasn't some cry baby like BRC made him. Shakuni was just a guest and Karna at max a servant/bodyguard by then, their support wouldn't have helped planning the murder of a prince. Aside why didn't they ever complain about such murder attempts unless they were sure that they don't stand much chance of justice.

7) Why did Vidur ask Pandavas to remain hidden after Varnavrat, they had the public support then, they could have challenged the wrong doers, but no they only got confidence to return after marrying Draupadi and gaining Panchal support. Even then they were given the barren land filled with robbers and infiltrators (i think Danavas and Nagas had infiltrated into those areas and KhandavDahan was aimed at freeing it) Not just that before the Rajsuya, they were still like Hastinapur's protectorate (so before the Rajsuya Yudhishtir's standard was at par with Karna or Ashwathama) Duryodhan was like an overlord to all of them. Why would an all loving Bheeshm let all this happen?

It is highly probable that Bheeshm actually wanted Duryodhan to become the king, but he could not openly tell this because the Kaunteyas had the support of the sages, Yadavs were gaining some dominance and public had sympathy for these kids. They would have been killed had their spy Yuyutsu not supported them.

Shakuni and Karna probably were just the front line minions for Bheeshm to ensure Pandavas are removed from equation without his hands getting dirty

I don't think it has anything to do with Karna. Karna doesn't say he already knew Kunti was his mother. We know Bheeshma knew.

My feeling is Bheeshma waa carrying a grudge from losing his position to Satyavati's progeny. He was playing one side against the other.

That matches my assessment of Bhishma's position completely.

He was a misogynist in general and had very low opinion of women.

In all probability he disliked Kunti for the premarital child he had and Could not accept Pandu doing Niyog without even bothering to inform him forget taking permission. He would have seen this as Kunti making cuckold of Pandu. Not something benefitting Kurus.

Once Duryodhan was born he must have totally made up his mind that Duryodhan will take the lineage of Kurus forward and groomed him.

Kunti landing up with kids and rishis support would have forced him to acknowledge them but never assuaged his resentment.

He may have liked Arjun and been nice to him for his warrior talent. But Yudhishtir had nothing to appeal to him.

Also in any yagya, elders can be anyone but honor is only given to head of the family. Its protocol and their birth right.

Simply by being elder Vyasa or Drupad will not get it. Vyasa was a mentor and Drupad father in law. They had no right of honor compared to Bhishma.

Bhishma, even if had actually conspired to kill them still had that right of honor. Formal protocols do not change due to personal opinions or emotions.

That is why Yudhishtir not honoring him is a big insult. And it may still have been ok if Shishupal had not pointed this out and told Bhishma that he is impotent for standing and watching while Krishna is getting that honor. Bhishma if he had walked away at this, all the kings would have supported him and left too.

It was a big deal. Yudhishtir sealed his fate there.All the gloves were off after that

After that it was no way Bhishma would ever be decent with him. He definetly knew the dice game plan and watched with smugness as Pandavas were humiliated. Otherwise would Karna even dare speaking to Draupadi the way he did. He was a henchman, a minion an outsider. He verbally abused Draupadi because now Bhishma did not consider her daughter in law. Neither did he have anymore scruples about Pandavas now.

Bhishma tells Karna that he knows about Karna being Kunti's son, this was narrated to Dhruti by Sanjay, why didn't Dhruti tell Dury about it?

@Chiilli^^ do you think Bheeshm had no issues with Draupadi's attempted Vastraharan too? I thought it was after Vastraharan that he felt Kauravas were not worth it and became vocal in Pandavas support

Aside why didn't he leave after not being positioned as Pratham Poojya

Bhishma didnt leave Rajasuya because he didnt want to be seen as petty. And still hoping for a face saver, but Shishupal butted in.

There you see his shrewdness, the way Bhishma keeps provoking shishupal and krishna he gets the situation from bad to worse and Krishna kills Shishupal. Another big mistake. A king is killed in a Rajsuya. That too who was a relative and long time ally. It was sordid message for all the kings there. Beware... Dont trust Pandavas.

No he didnt have the slightest bit of sympathy for Draupadi.

Why will he have when he had been humiliated in a sabha of kings by Yudhishtir.

But he was old school, the traditional conservative. These types of guys never betray their emotions in public. They are always prim and proper and portray an image of greatness. But use their henchmen to do the dirty deed for them. Yudhishtir was actually like him.

Because no other man would say the things he said about his brothers and draupadi when they died. And at the same time showing off how great a person he is for being sinless.

These kind of people live for their image as a great person and will make any sacrifice for it. But their hearts are really cold.

There is a term for that Narcissist.

Originally posted by: Chiillii

That matches my assessment of Bhishma's position completely.

He was a misogynist in general and had very low opinion of women.

In all probability he disliked Kunti for the premarital child he had and Could not accept Pandu doing Niyog without even bothering to inform him forget taking permission. He would have seen this as Kunti making cuckold of Pandu. Not something benefitting Kurus.

Once Duryodhan was born he must have totally made up his mind that Duryodhan will take the lineage of Kurus forward and groomed him.

Kunti landing up with kids and rishis support would have forced him to acknowledge them but never assuaged his resentment.

He may have liked Arjun and been nice to him for his warrior talent. But Yudhishtir had nothing to appeal to him.

Also in any yagya, elders can be anyone but honor is only given to head of the family. Its protocol and their birth right.

Simply by being elder Vyasa or Drupad will not get it. Vyasa was a mentor and Drupad father in law. They had no right of honor compared to Bhishma.

Bhishma, even if had actually conspired to kill them still had that right of honor. Formal protocols do not change due to personal opinions or emotions.

That is why Yudhishtir not honoring him is a big insult. And it may still have been ok if Shishupal had not pointed this out and told Bhishma that he is impotent for standing and watching while Krishna is getting that honor. Bhishma if he had walked away at this, all the kings would have supported him and left too.

It was a big deal. Yudhishtir sealed his fate there.All the gloves were off after that

After that it was no way Bhishma would ever be decent with him. He definetly knew the dice game plan and watched with smugness as Pandavas were humiliated. Otherwise would Karna even dare speaking to Draupadi the way he did. He was a henchman, a minion an outsider. He verbally abused Draupadi because now Bhishma did not consider her daughter in law. Neither did he have anymore scruples about Pandavas now.

Its ur pov u regarding bheesam or somewhere is is written.

Arjun definitely shared with krishna what relationship arjun & bheesam shared , it was not coz of warrior ship.

Bheesam definitely has flaws & was wrong in dice hall but itna bhi galat nhi , jitna aap bol rhe ho.

Bheesam was capable of killing all d Pandavas still he dint coz he did had some feelings for them.

If bheesam was so wrong then he would had told everyone about karna being kunti's son which he never did

I really don't think Yudhishtira insulted Bheeshma on purpose. Yudhishtira was a whiny, insecure man, but he wasn't a fool. I think it might've been his way of splitting the difference by asking Bheeshma to pick one.

Bheeshma of course was smarter and picked th one man guaranteed to raise hackles. Krishna was no king, not an elite, and had defeated most of them in battle. He didn't build th empire himself because no on would've accepted him. And then, he got first honor!

Then, Bheeshma needled both Shishupal and Krishna and made sure the death happened at Krishna's hands. Or course it became a big deal.

Also, I do think it quite possible Bheeshma would know Yudhishtira would do something like that and had planned exactly this to enrage the kings. The Shishupal outrage could not have been planned, but the rest of it, yes.

Originally posted by: deepikagupta9

Its ur pov u regarding bheesam or somewhere is is written.

Arjun definitely shared with krishna what relationship arjun & bheesam shared , it was not coz of warrior ship.

Bheesam definitely has flaws & was wrong in dice hall but itna bhi galat nhi , jitna aap bol rhe ho.

Bheesam was capable of killing all d Pandavas still he dint coz he did had some feelings for them.

If bheesam was so wrong then he would had told everyone about karna being kunti's son which he never did

See this is definitely not written anywhere. No one is written to be good or bad, except them being mentioned as the incarnation of good or bad and that is definitely based on certain biases which Janmayey might have had or maybe even the later ones. We judge by the actions of characters. This is history not a fiction that we would have all the details, in history we only get to know the stuffs which become public and not the hidden plottings

Arjun definitely loved Bheeshm. He considered Bheeshm (n Drona) his father figure, yet he was never allowed to complain against Kauravas to him. Kauravas weren't like playing prank on them, they were doing murder attempts. Arjun agreeing to his elders and not complaining to Bheeshm show that even he had some doubts on his neutrality (forget bias towards Arjun/Pandavas)

This is a completely wrong notion that Bheeshm was capable of killing Pandavas. If you say during their childhood, Bheeshm would definitely not do that directly since it would raise suspicion into the minds of the state, if you say about the war, he would have been around late nineties or early hundreds at that time. Howsoever good health he might have had he would definitely not be capable to kill much younger and more swift warriors who were always strategically positioned.

Not revealing Karna Kunti relation would have actually helped him in his plans. Revealing could have lead to Pandavas accepting Karna (before the dice hall they could have still done that if Karna asked for forgiveness) which would mean his side loses a very important support/frontline minion. Secondly it would expose him as a failure since the marriages were fixed by his approval. The risk could have still been taken, but it would have had no favourable results. Sages supported Kunti's claim that the kids are all divine born, she would have said that Karna was born by SunGod and settled down any public uproar

@Deepikagupta

If you want to learn what a loathsome man Bheeshma actually was, you can do so from Bheeshma's own words in Anushasana Parva.