The Swayamvar that Vyasa presented who are in,who won? - Page 2

Originally posted by: Brahmaputra

It is okay. What I meant is we should read thoroughly before presenting a point as a valid one. Otherwise it is not difficult to find loopeholes. And certainly, loopeholes can be found in most things related to Karna. Why to invite unnecessary troubles? Thats all.

The point I presented regarding the Swayamvar is done after reading different versions and unanimously agreeing with that which was presented in CE. There are no two ways about it.But every one is entitled to have their own views regarding the authenticity of BORI. I heard Karna fans have a lot of problems with CE. Mahanayak Admins are right it seems. Any way we all are free to hold our own views.

😆 It is not the problem of CE. It feels abrupt and incomplete at places (like the bheema's poisoning episode), I agree. But I totally agree with CE in Draupadi Svayamvaram. So only said Vaikartana did nothing than sitting by Suyodhana's side. Had it been Northern Recension or Southern Recension, there was hope to prove he participated in Draupadi Svayamvaram. You are simply bringing the matter to what fans think when I spoke about what CE says. I know there is a verse that says Karna and Shalya failed in the competition. But considering the whole context, it does not seem Vaikartana either participated or failed and the above verse still holds good. I wonder why do people forget what they read already in one chapter by the time they reach the next or even the beginning of a chapter by the time they reach its middle...!!!

Sacred Texts,CLXL SwayamvaraParva ...That bow which Rukma,Sunitha,Vakra, Radha's Son ,Duryodhana,Salya and many other kings accomplished in Science of arms could not even string,Arjuna,The son of Indra ,the foremost of all persons endowed with energy ,like Vishnu himself strung the bow in the twinkling of an eye...It is clear . Atleast for me. Karna attempted but could not even string the bow ...Only Jishnu succeeded no one else. Some K fans argued in Mahanayak site that Radha's son means Shon. Ridiculous. If Shon attempts Will Karna sit like a statue? Not his nature.I firmly believe and understand what I wrote above. Vaikartana participated but failed.Just sitting is not his nature. He gatecrashed The Exhibition of Skills that is meant only for Kuru princes. So CE is hundred percent correct judging by his nature. One who took lead in the after Swayamvar battle must definitely have jumped into the contest.But a case of sour grapes for him.Let it be. For you Karna sat like a statue for me he entered and failed.The above proof is sufficient for me. My Jishnu is the best.

AFIK, Shon does not exist in MBh at all. He is a creation of Mr Shivaji Sawant for his FF Mrityunjaya. Karna had no brothers by that name. Why quoting KMG now? I told already, if you go by Northern and Southern Recensions (KMG is from Northern), you can prove Karna participated and failed. I have no problem in that. But not according to CE. I feel you should stick to CE as you believe it is the most authentic one. As Karna was not recognised as a Kshatriya when he WAS ALIVE, no one can prove he participated in Draupadi Svayamvaram acc to CE. And why bringing Rangabhoomi here? He did not gatecrash. Also the programme was not exclusive for princes. Had it been so, Drona would not have given Karna persmission to show his skills. With Drona's permission only he did show his skills in Rangabhoomi. I think reading is a must. No one is saying here Jishnu was not the best. Also proving Karna innocent does not make him the best. That all depends on personal views. As for me, I do not want to prove Karna was the best. I do not think so. The best or not, Karna was Karna. But I do not like to criticise him for things he never did.

What is there to prove in CE still? I began with CE only. The poem I gave is from the heart of Draupadi swayamvara. I went to KMG after proving it from CE. Since you are saying CE is this that I gave another proof. I hope you read yes I say it again you read my main post once.And why you are saying the Exhibition of skills is not exclusively for Kuruprinces? It is for Kurumprinces only. Lest Drona had so many desciples front other countries as his desciples. Ofcourse he gave permission only to prove that he has confidence in the valour of Arjun that can not be dominated by another case in point Karna. He gatecrashed. I repeat. The incident itself is popularly known as The Exhibition of Skills by Kuru princes . Dhritarashtra exclusively wanted to know the skill of Kuruprinces. Not others. Otherwise Why Karna only? There are many other desciples of Drona who can show their skills Drona gave permission after Karna challenged Arjun.He did not invite him there.I took this incident only to show his nature .And not switching over from Swayamvar . Who told you it is only for Kshatriyas? Arjun did it as a Brahmin. And Karna by then is acknowledged as King of Anga. He sat with Kuru princes.Otherwise he wouldn't have been allowed to even sit with Duryothan.The Swayamvar gave importance to valour not to caste.So CE first and KMG next for me. And one more thing. There is no need to blame Karna for the things he had not done. He did umpteen wrong things to get blame attached to his name.

Well, what I read in the book is Karna entered the scene only after the tournament got over and the arena became silent. Karna was there amid the crowd watching everything, but he did not barge in while Arjuna was performing. When the tournament itself was over, how can we say he "gate-crashed" the tournament? It is true Drona gave him permission only after he told he would repeat what all Arjuna did. But that is not gate-crashing the tournament. He entered the arena only after the tournament ended. It is such a clear thing.
Regarding Draupadi Svayamvaram, is it not told Arjuna got up after all Kshatriyas failed in even lifting the bow? Was Karna recognised as a Kshatriya then? Duryodhana had come with Dushassana and twenty other brothers whose names are not mentioned. Remember, there were two Karnas among Kauravas, one elder and one younger to Vikarna. When this is the truth and it is not explicitly written Vaikartana took part in Svayamvaram, how could you say it was he who got defeated? There were other kings by name Karna, contemporary to Karna and Arjuna. What about them? And this Karna was not the only guy who mastered archery then. Only by citing the name Karna, we cannot prove it was Vaikartana. I do not consider KMG for a deeper study as it has translated a lot of words wrongly and has avoided many verse too. It is good for a beginning. Thats all.
PS - I am not saying that whay you say is wrong. It is right, but only in the surface. No Sanskrit writer has ever written things with cross-reference. It is always left for the reader to do that. Otherwise the whole work would look ugly.

When Ved Vyas said that Prominent warriors like Karna and Salya failed ,he would never mean insignificant brothers of Duryothan who are not famous in any way. Their name would never be taken along with a prominent warrior like Salya. I infer that Karna,refers to the relatively famous Friend of Duryothan not X y or Z. You may conveniently apply it to Duryothan's brothers who are never talked about in any way. And my readers can decide whom Ved Vyasa meant by saying Karna Salya Pramukhan.And they do as per their sensibilities. Yes. Karna gatecrashed the event. He didn't have the entry Pass to enter the event. Whether the event is concluded or not,it is none of his business. Still he did. Drona obliged. It shows the magnanimity of Drona,Chivalry of Arjuna and jealousy of Karna towards Arjun who is far younger than him. If you can say that I am taking the event on surface I may say you are blindfolded regarding the reality to glorify your Karna. Any way we are used to it. The same arguments that you held were tackled and answered in Mahanayak site by Stalwarts who are more learned and exposed in to the Depths of the Epic. So Brahmaputra I will never agree to what you say and you won't support my ideas. We are poles apart in our thought process like Karn and Arjun.So let us hold our views intact and be happy in our own world of Arjun for me and Karn for you.

I have no problem in accepting Karna failed in Svayamvara competition. He had failed in many wars. So nothing surprising if he had failed in Svayamvaram. Just prove he was accepted as a Kshatriya when he was alive. More than enough to prove it was he who failed in Svayamvaram.
What I am saying is one verse clearly states Arjuna got up after all Kshatriyas failed. Karna was never recognised as a Kshatriya when he was alive. Another verse says Karna and Shalya failed. Now only one of the two verse has to be correct if we talk about Vaikartana. Both can be correct only if it is someone else. Simple.
PS - Dhristadyumna also informs Draupadi while intoducing the contestants that they are all "Kshatriyas". And there are many verse which say the same. They all cannot be overlooked.

Ever since Karna was made AngRaj,he roamed in the company of Kshatriyas. No one disrespected him as he is the close associate of Duryothan,the Kuru Yuvaraj.When Dhrishtradyumn described the contestants who came to seek the hand of Draupadi to Draupadi he says thus.' Ete chanye cha Bahavo Dhartarashtra Mahabalaah Karnena Sahita Veerah Tvadartham samupagatah.The sons of Dhritarashtra large in number attended along with Karna for your sake...If Dhrishtradyumn had any objection to Karna's candidature he will never say like that. Next after the Swayamvar it is described.' Tatah Karnamukhat Kriddhaan Kshatriyan ...Abhitau Tau Gajau Prati Gajaniva ...Angry Kshatriyas attacked them placing Karna before them. They both faced them fearlessly like Elephants with Elephants.Here the kings have Karna leading them against Arjun and Bheem. If they feel Karna as inferior they would not have fought under his leadership. Nowhere we see any insult done to him by royal people . Definitely he was there in the Lime light. No need of a Kshatriya tag for him'

I think it was impossible for others to respect Karna's bitter mouth and sword like tongue. It is crystal clear in the book whenever Karna appears. What Dhrishtadyumna said is Kauravas came for Draupadi, accompanied by (sahitaa) Karna. Not Kauravas along with Karna came for Draupadi. Both are different. There was no need for Karna to "accompany" Kauravas if he was a participant. He came there only as a companion for Duryodhana. It is clearly said in "Karnena sahitaa veeraa tvadartham samupaagataa:". Otherwise Karna won't be described as "sahitaa" (as a companion) and Kauravas won't be specified there again as "veeraa", after mentioning them in the just above line as "Ete cha anye cha bahavo dhartharashtraa mahaabalaa:". That certainly means Karna was only a viewer, not a contestant. The specific use of the word "sahitaa" disproves Karna's identity as a candidate in Draupadi Svayamvaram. There are plenty better words in Sanskrit to say Karna came "along with"...Had it been so, it would have made him a candidate in Svayamvaram.
Edit - Regarding Kshatriyas fighting keeping Karna in front, that was because they had a failed attempt already, which is said in the previous chapter of the chapter from which you quoted the verse. All angry Kshatriyas went to kill Drupada and he asked help of two Brahmanas (Bheema & Arjuna) who came and resisted the Kshtriyas. Then Kshatriyas attacked both of them and Bheema uprooted a big tree to fight and Arjuna took his Gandeeva. It is at this point Krishna recognised Arjuna. And afterwards only Kshatriyas fought Bheema-Arjuna with keeping Karna in front. There was clearly no other way for them and what mattered to them at that moment was only their hurt male-ego. Karna was useful to them more than anyone else there as he was a better warrior than most of them and was also trained under Parashurama.