{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata - 2 |}

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TheWatcher

@TheWatcher

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#461

Originally posted by: Cotswolds

Nicely put Sabhayata with strong logic...

I dont think we can put some rigid rule here that name of "real" Karna must accompany references to his origin.. You have yourself provided citation of Karna with Parashurama where he is simply referred to as Karna.. nothing else. So I don't think there is any rule here.

Nonetheless, CE rules out this and varaali mentions it to be a superior edition. and Kara reference is completely ommitted which is backed up by your strong points.. So it appears to me that Karna is not involved in Drupada war.

I do appreciate you giving all these excellent references. It was very helpful. ⭐️ U da best!!!👏

I don't think Gandhari's son ever went to Parshurama, obviously it was only Karna, In Mahabharata only three students studied under Parshurama - Bhishma, Drona & Karna, hence it is easy to prove that it was the REAL Karna rather than some other one.

A rule should be - If Karna's divine origin / alternate name is not mentioned, he is not Suryaputra Karna, he might be some other Karna. If 'only' Karna is mentioned and it is backed by a strong point which makes Suryaputra Karna, then he can be the real Karna.

I hope it makes sense.

Parshurama addressing Karna would be as credible as his alternate name / divine origin since Parshurama had only 3 students in Mahabharata and Karna was one of them.

Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago

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Cotswolds

@Cotswolds

Voyager

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#462

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

I don't think Gandhari's son ever went to Parshurama, obviously it was only Karna, In Mahabharata only three students studied under Parshurama - Bhishma, Drona & Karna, hence it is easy to prove that it was the REAL Karna rather than some other one.

No need to prove TheWatcher. We all know it was our Karna. 😊

A rule should be - If Karna's divine origin / alternate name is not mentioned, he is not Suryaputra Karna, he might be some other Karna. If 'only' Karna is mentioned and it is backed by a strong point which makes Suryaputra Karna, then he can be the real Karna.

I hope it makes sense.

Well.. I dont agree with this. This is not a mathematical theorem to be abided by such rigid rules. But obviously if Karna name is mentioned, I first would like to think him as our Radheya. If supporting logic strongly suggests that he is not our Karna then I like to consider Gandhari Karna.

This makes more sense as he has more prominent role in the epic.

And I am just trying get right perspective and if CE says something otherwise, I may be inclined to accept it as in Sabhayata's post.

I do appreciate you and Sabhayata's hard work to put together various citations, cogent arguments and helping our understanding. Sometimes we may not agree on final conclusion but that does not matter to me.

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Ashwini_D

@Ashwini_D

Navigator

Posted: 11 years ago

#463

Originally posted by: AnuMP

But isnt Indra Arjun's bio-dad? That would make Sachi his step-mom

Also KMG version clearly calls Drau as Sree. I am just trying to figure out who is Sree? Saraswati or Laxmi?

I prefer to believe Drau and the Pandavas were completely human, BTW

I think we need some research on how our deities evolved and changed over time. Like Indra, who was a major deity during MB's time, lost much of his sheen to the trinity later.

Edited by Ashwini_D - 11 years ago

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TheWatcher

@TheWatcher

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#464

Originally posted by: Cotswolds

Well.. I dont agree with this. This is not a mathematical theorem to be abided by such rigid rules. But obviously if Karna name is mentioned, I first would like to think him as our Radheya. If supporting logic strongly suggests that he is not our Karna then I like to consider Gandhari Karna.

This makes more sense as he has more prominent role in the epic.

And I am just trying get right perspective and if CE says something otherwise, I may be inclined to accept it as in Sabhayata's post.

I do appreciate you and Sabhayata's hard work to put together various citations, cogent arguments and helping our understanding. Sometimes we may not agree on final conclusion but that does not matter to me.

You have put the part in red quite nicely, I agree with it.

Actually, sometimes being in a disagreement shows me that the person has a mind of his own, I like to get into a disagreement with friends because it shows like the latter won't agree with all my crap😆

Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago

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Cotswolds

@Cotswolds

Voyager

+ 2

Posted: 11 years ago

#465

Originally posted by: TheWatcher
Actually, sometimes being in a disagreement shows me that the person has a mind of his own, I like to get into a disagreement with friends because it shows like the latter won't agree with all my crap😆

😆😆 Yup.. But you are right. different perspectives challenge us to think independently.

By the way.. I liked it when you dispelled my incorrect notion that Karna broke Abhi bow from behind..👏

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Sabhayata

@Sabhayata

Sparkler

+ 4

Posted: 11 years ago

#466

Also regarding Brahamshira i checked again as per both CE and KMG arjuna got Brahamshira after the crocodile incident that is after he had saved drona's life from a crocodile

And when Drona had plunged into the stream, a strong alligator, sent as it were, by Death himself seized him by the thigh. And though himself quite capable, Drona in a seeming hurry asked his pupil to rescue him. And he said, 'O, kill this monster and rescue me.' Contemporaneously with this speech, Vibhatsu (Arjuna) struck the monster within the water with five sharp arrows irresistible in their course, while the other pupils stood confounded, each at his place. Beholding Arjuna's readiness, Drona considered him to be the foremost of all his pupils, and became highly pleased. The monster, in the meantime cut into pieces by the arrows of Arjuna, released the thigh of illustrious Drona and gave up the ghost. The son of Bharadwaja then addressed the illustrious and mighty car-warrior Arjuna and said, 'Accept, O thou of mighty arms, this very superior and irresistible weapon called Brahmasira with the methods of hurling and recalling it. Thou must not, however, ever use it against any human foe, for if hurled at any foe endued with inferior energy, it might burn the whole universe. It is said, O child, that this weapon hath not a peer in the three worlds. Keep it, therefore, with great care, and listen to what I say. If ever, O hero, any foe, not human, contendeth against thee thou mayst then employ it against him for compassing his death in battle.'

so probably after this karna asked for Brahamshira and was refused and then he went to parashuram

Edited by Sabhayata - 11 years ago

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TheWatcher

@TheWatcher

Voyager

Posted: 11 years ago

#467

In CE, when does Karna approach Parshurama and when did the former get Brahmashira?

In KMG it is not clearly mentioned about when Karna approached Parshurama abs when did he get Brahmashira.

Edited by TheWatcher - 11 years ago

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#468

Originally posted by: TheWatcher
If you're talking about the last battle - Karna fired Brahmastra and Arjuna fired Aindra weapon, Infact, Karna baffled Aindra weapon with his own arrows, note that Brahmastra of Karna was still in play, Arjuna then fired Brahmastra which baffled Karna's Brahmastra and struck the latter a few times.

I'd have to reread - I'm going by memory on what the Mahabharata ACK series has in their battle. There, they mentioned Karna's Brahmastra vs Arjun's Agniastra. Looks like in Dwarpar yuga, Brahmastra's potential had depreciated a lot since Ravan's death 😆

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Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 11 years ago

#469

Originally posted by: TheWatcher
I am also a strong believer that Karna possessed Brahmashira.

And about Bhishma not expanding Hastinapur's kingdom - This is the major problem I have with Bhishma's prowess, if he was so powerful, why didnt he perform Rajsuya?, It was Karna who got
( under his sway ) most of kingdoms for Hastinapur rather than Bhishma.

Bhishma, despite being such a powerful warrior, had no achievements at all.

Most of Bheeshma's activities took place during the reign of Shantanu, Chitrangada & Vichitravirya. It was Pandu who stopped sending him on military expeditions & went himself.

Also, during that time, Jarasandha was supreme throughout Aryavarta, so a good portion of Bheeshma's role was keeping Hastinapur intact and propping up friendly kingdoms. Like it was he who restored Prishata of Panchala to his throne after the latter had been dethroned.

I doubt that Bheeshma was much of a match for Jarasandha, or else, the Yadavas would have taken his help in their campaign against him. Another possible reason may be that Dhritarashtra was not inclined to make enemies w/ Jarasandha, which is why Krishna had to wait until Yudhistir became samrat

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Sabhayata

@Sabhayata

Sparkler

+ 4

Posted: 11 years ago

#470

Originally posted by: TheWatcher
In CE, when does Karna approach Parshurama and when did the former get Brahmashira?

In KMG it is not clearly mentioned about when Karna approached Parshurama abs when did he get Brahmashira.

this part is same in both KMG and CE only difference is CE calls it as Brahamastra only not brahamshira like KMG

but the sittuation is the same only karna asks for it from drona ,drona refuses it he goes to parashurama and parashurama gives him the desired weapon along with other's.As to when this happens in karna's life is unclear.

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