{| Doubts and Discussions about Mahabharata - 2 |} - Page 45

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

that clears the air of Bhishma, Karna & Parshurama not possessing Brahmashira.

i think karna did possess brahamshira and he got it from parshurama

because in KMG brahamastra is always refereed to as brahamastra only

but when the citation of parushuram cursing karna comes it is mentioned that he curses karna will forget the mantras brahma weapon not brahamatra

so this brahma weapon would be brahamshira

this is what karna asks drona

Karna. one day approached Drona in private and said these words unto him, 'I desire to be acquainted with the Brahma weapon, with all its mantras and the power of withdrawing it,

What he gets from parushuram

Observant of ascetic penances, Rama cheerfully communicated, with due forms, unto his penance-observing disciple, everything about the Brahma weapon with the mantras for withdrawing it. Having acquired a knowledge of that weapon, Karna began to pass his days happily in Bhrigu's retreat, and endued with wonderful prowess, he devoted himself with great ardour to the science of weapons

this is parushuram's curse

that foremost one of Bhrigu's race, smiling though filled with wrath, answered, 'Since thou hast, from avarice of weapons, behaved here with falsehood, therefore, O wretch, this Brahma weapon shalt not dwell in thy remembrance . Since thou art not a Brahmana, truly this Brahma weapon shall not, up to the time of thy death, dwell in thee when thou shalt be engaged with a warrior equal to thyself!

in all the places its mentioned as Brahma weapon only not Brahamastra

which makes sense as well becuase during his last battle with arjuna karna does invoke brahamastra i don't think parshuram's curse can fail

Originally posted by: AnuMP

But isnt Indra Arjun's bio-dad? That would make Sachi his step-mom

Also KMG version clearly calls Drau as Sree. I am just trying to figure out who is Sree? Saraswati or Laxmi?

I prefer to believe Drau and the Pandavas were completely human, BTW

hmm indras were not always the same they used keep changing over generations as per the merits earned

but yes you are right shree is form of laxmi.

In KMG is several times mentioned that draupadi is a form of shree but in CE i.e critical edition she is also mentioned as form of laxmi

so the story goes that five indras were cursed to be born as humans by shiva ji these five indras were the five pandavas and he had also ordained that shree(laxmi) will be their wife

then they all went to take Hari who is vishnu ji's permission and then CE mentions that celestial laxmi was born as draupadi

"Hari⁴⁸plucked two hairs from his body. One was white and the other was black. These two hairs entered the wombs of two women from the Yadu lineage, Rohini and Devaki. One of them⁴⁹became Baladeva and the second one that was black became Keshava. Those ones who were like Shakra and were earlier confined in the mountain cavern are none other than the valorous Pandavas, while the Pandava Savyasachi⁵⁰is a part of Shakra. O king! Thus it was that the former Indras were born as the Pandavas, and the celestial Lakshmi, earlier ordained to be their wife, was born as the divinely beautiful Droupadi. She whose radiance is like the sun and the moon and whose fragrance can be smelt from the distance of one krosha, cannot have arisen from the earth

However other puranas refer to draupadi as incarnation of sachi rather than shri.Which to my mind also makes more sense

here is an interesting analysis of the fact
http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=10890

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

Abhimanyu's armour was peirced by Karna inside the Chakrvyuha, Drona would have been admiring Abhimayu as a whole.

in KMG there is a lot of confusion on Chakravyuha and Brahmashira weapon. Krishna says only He, Pradyumna & Arjuna knew how to break the Chakravyuha, none else, one can say that Bhishma , Drona and Karna did not knew how to break the Chakravyuha, but then again - was Krishna talking about only the Pandava side? or as a whole?.

The Brahmashira weapon - ( for the info Brahmashira is Brahmastra x 4) -, this weapon is said to be in possession of only three warriors, Drona, Arjuna & Aswathama, so one can say Bhishma and Karna did not have it, but then again - From where Drona get the knowledge of Brahmashira?, if it is from Parshurama, wouldn't Parshurama teach the Brahmashira weapon to Bhishma and his favorite student ( Karna )?, If Parshurama can give his personal weapon and personal bow to Karna, cant he give him the knowledge of Brahamshira?, lots of things to wonder.

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

I don't interpret Sree as Lakshmi since the latter was in the form of Rukmini, The only trident wielder is Shiva no confusion about this.

Sree cannot be Lakshmi and Parvati because the latter two have their own Consorts ( Vishnu and Shiva ). ( Slight chance she can be an ansh of Lakshmi since Arjuna was Nara )

I guess Arjuna too merged into Vishnu since he was Nara.

If you check the first page of this thread, I asked the same question, I still dont know which goddess Sree is, maybe any scholar can help us/me.

Originally posted by: Cotswolds

Vrish, i had provided citation in early pages.. Drona received Brahmashira from Agastya and not Parshurama.
Aswi mentions this to krishna when he goes to ask for discus.

Originally posted by: TheWatcher

No, it was Brahmastra, Karna never desired the knowledge of Brahmashira since very hardly people knew it, Drona refused him teaching all the celestial weapons inlcuding Brahmastra, Drona refused, hence Karna went to Parshurama.

Bheeshma was no doubt the most powerful warrior around in Aryavarata and then Hastinapur also got Drona on their side who was almost equal to Bheeshma in prowess. But they hardly took to expansion and Pandu's digvijaya seems to be the neighboring kings only. Is there any record of Pandu fighting with Jarasandha and Kansa as part of his digvijaya?

Originally posted by: ThePirateKing

Bheeshma was no doubt the most powerful warrior around in Aryavarata and then Hastinapur also got Drona on their side who was almost equal to Bheeshma in prowess. But they hardly took to expansion and Pandu's digvijaya seems to be the neighboring kings only. Is there any record of Pandu fighting with Jarasandha and Kansa as part of his digvijaya?

Pandavas were the first to expand after killing Jarasandha and then after they were exiled it was Karna who undertook the task of subjugating the kings.

What prevented Hastinapur from expanding or searching for allies like Jarasandha when Bheeshma and Drona were younger? Was it that they were weak in resources or was it that Bheeshma and Vidur were pacifists? They did not even support Mathura their relatives (through Kunti) when Jarasandha attacked them. Hardly any surprise then that Krishna chose Pandavas as his allies.

good point! I too wonder many times why tbey didn't? also if we leave karna digvijay aside what abt dury?

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I agree w/ Sabhayata on this - Brahmashira was what Karna wanted. He had the Brahmastra - may have gotten it too from Parashurama - which he did use in battle against Arjun, which Arjun quenched w/ Agniastra. Brahmashira was what would have saved him when his wheel sunk, but it was that weapon that Parashurama cursed him w/ forgetting.

In which case, Parashurama had to have known. Bheeshma is still unclear.

If you're talking about the last battle - Karna fired Brahmastra and Arjuna fired Aindra weapon, Infact, Karna baffled Aindra weapon with his own arrows, note that Brahmastra of Karna was still in play, Arjuna then fired Brahmastra which baffled Karna's Brahmastra and struck the latter a few times.