WHY DID YUDHISHTHIR GO TO HEAVEN?please reply - Page 9

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#81

Originally posted by: varaali

I knew this would be the passage which would be quoted. The reason I asked was to know whether there are any references elsewhere which I may have missed.



Go back 2 pages, to section 3. I dunno whether you knew that I'll next quote this, but here it comes

"Thus addressed, that royal sage, viz., thy grandsire, proceeded with Dharma and all the other gods. Having bathed in the celestial river Ganga, sacred and sanctifying and ever adored by the Rishis, he cast off his human body. Assuming then a celestial form, king Yudhishthira the just, in consequence of that bath, became divested of all his enmities and grief. Surrounded by the deities, the Kuru king Yudhishthira then proceeded from that spot. He was accompanied by Dharma, and the great Rishis uttered his praises. Indeed, he reached that place where those foremost of men, those heroes, viz., the Pandavas and the Dhartarashtras, freed from (human) wrath, were enjoying each his respective status.


Essentially, Yudisthira gets for company not only his beloved family - Pandu, Kunti, Madri, Karna, Bhima, Arjun, Nakul, Sahadev & Draupadi, but also Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Duryodhan & everyone else. Do the non-KMG recensions contest this page as well? In fact, are the non-KMG recensions unanimous that the Dhartarashtras, for one, didn't end up in heaven?

Also, if you again go to the portion I cited, you'll notice a lot more. You seemed to be assuming that the Dhartarashtras are the only evil ones in the story. But elsewhere, in the part that I cited, there was more:

"Bhishma of mighty energy and great effulgence attained to the status of the Vasus. Eight Vasus, O chief of Bharata's race, are now seen. Drona entered into Brihaspati, that foremost one of Angirasa's descendants. Hridika's son Kritavarma entered the Maruts. Pradyumna entered Sanatkumara whence he had issued. Dhritarashtra obtained the regions, so difficult of acquisition, that belong to the Lord of treasures. The famous Gandhari obtained the same regions with her husband Dhritarashtra. With his two wives, Pandu proceeded to the abode of the great Indra. Both Virata and Drupada, the king Dhrishtaketu, as also Nishatha, Akrura, Samva, Bhanukampa, and Viduratha, and Bhurishrava and Sala and king Bhuri, and Kansa, and Ugrasena, and Vasudeva, and Uttara, that foremost of men, with his brother Sankha"all these foremost of persons entered the deities. Soma's son of great prowess, named Varchas of mighty energy, became Abhimanyu, the son of Phalguna, that lion among men. Having fought, agreeably to Kshatriya practices, with bravery such as none else had ever been able to show, that mighty-armed and righteous-souled being entered Soma. Slain on the field of battle, O foremost of men, Karna entered Surya. Shakuni obtained absorption into Dwapara, and Dhrishtadyumna into the deity of fire. The sons of Dhritarashtra were all Rakshasas of fierce might. Sanctified by death caused by weapons, those high-souled beings of prosperity all succeeded in attaining to Heaven. Both Kshattri and king Yudhishthira entered into the god of Righteousness. The holy and illustrious Ananta (who had taken birth as Balarama) proceeded to the region below the Earth. Through the command of the Grandsire, he, aided by his Yoga power, supported the Earth. Vasudeva was a portion of that eternal god of gods called Narayana. Accordingly, he entered into Narayana. 16,000 women had been married to Vasudeva as his wives. When the time came, O Janamejaya, they, plunged into the Sarasvati. Casting off their (human) bodies there, they re-ascended to Heaven. Transformed into Apsaras, they approached the presence of Vasudeva. Those heroic and mighty car-warriors, Ghatotkaca and others, who were slain in the great battle, attained to the status, some of gods and some of Yakshas. Those that had fought on the side of Duryodhana are said to have been Rakshasas. Gradually, O king, they have all attained to excellent regions of felicity. Those foremost of men have proceeded, some to the abode of Indra, some to that of Kuvera of great intelligence, and some to that of Varuna. I have now told thee, O thou of great splendour, everything about the acts, O Bharata, of both the Kurus and the Pandavas.



If you notice the above, Kansa, who has been described as a monster by all accounts, ends up right w/ Ugrasena, Vasudeva, Samba and others. Dhritarashtra, who turned his blind eyes towards dharma, ended up w/ Gandhari in the abode of Kubera. Is that much worse than where Pandu ended up w/ Madri & Kunti? They left out some others above, like Jayadrath, but obviously, as you mentioned, everybody who died @ Kurukshetra automatically ended up in heaven, no matter what they did in life.

Shakuni was in any case not as evil as the serials have him out to be, at least nowhere near Dushashan, Duryodhan or Kansa. And I'm not even counting those that fought on the Kaurava side despite not having to.

The final paragraph of the epic pretty much nails the coffin about the myth about one's afterlife being determined by one's deeds on earth:

"I have thus, O chief of men, told everything in thy presence. He that listens with devotion to this Bharata from the beginning becomes cleansed of every sin even if he be guilty of Brahmanicide or the violation of his preceptor's bed, or even if he be a drinker of alcohol or a robber of other people's wares, or even if he be born in the Chandala order. Destroying all his sins like the maker of day destroying darkness, such a man, without doubt, sports in felicity in the region of Vishnu like Vishnu himself."

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Posted: 11 years ago
#82
Probably because 2 minus need not make a plus.
Probably because the author wants to emphasize that when you do not give up and accept lies or adharma at any cost, you will get help from the God. When everything fails and you did everything right leave it to God like Gita says.
It appears as though the honor of women was not important at all during those days, especially slave women are not your subjects but rather some non living objects. Did a king have the right to touch any married women who worked for him? Did slavery override marriage rules? Did Mahabharat times have different rules for women?
Was it dharma to tolerate the abuse of a slave or any women and not help them? As shown on the TV he was finding it difficult to draw a line between dharma and adharma or ways to make dharma win. I am sure Pandavas did not agree to this adhama that is why they vowed to avenge Draupadi's dishonor.
Perhaps Yudi did not know the intentions of Kauravas to dishonor or disrobe Draupadi. Was probably too nave and trusting? He probably respected and trusted his uncle to not allow things to go this far. We who have not seen the almighty believe in him, Yudi had even met him.
Yudi finally lied, which got his wife justice or his throne to him. We donnot know the main purpose of the lie. Was it his throne back to him or was it his wife's honor that was more important or was it his subjects who were getting killed by Drona? Perhaps he needed Lord Krishna's help to teach him where to draw a line between good deeds and bad deeds.
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Posted: 11 years ago
#83
@IPKFAN1 but he went to hell albeit for a little while for the lie did he not??
@Vrrish RM says the same re who went to heaven.
and neither KMG nor RM says what happened to Duri and Dhritrashtra after Yudi saw him. Please refer to what Narad tells Yudi in KMG, and what indra tells him. I use RM because to me it is more condensed. Who knows what happened to Duri after his punya was exhausted????"1000 vs 1000 vs ONLY 2" # Dr Devdutt Pattnaik

"Your brothers are already in swarga! With them, are all the kings who fought for you. They, too, served a brief time in hell for their sins and were purified. You say you do not understand the law of Devaloka. Let me tell you what it is. If a man's sins outweigh his punya, then he comes straight into heaven when he dies. When his punya is exhausted, he sinks into hell to suffer for his sins. But if a soul's virtue exceeds his sins, then he pays first for his crimes and then comes into swarga forever. Your brothers are not here, Yudhishtira. Come with me, I will show you where they are." Yudhishtira's father, the Lord Dharma, appears before him again. Blessing his son, he says, "This was the third trial, the last one. Nothing could induce you to leave the path of truth; nothing could quell your love for your brothers. Come to those whom you love so much." The Devas bring Yudhishtira to the banks of the Ganga, flowing through heaven in her celestial form. The Pandava bathes in her waters of light and she takes his mortal body from him, like a worn set of clothes. He rises in glory, a king of Devaloka. With Indra and the others, Yudhishtira comes back to Amravati, to its incomparable sabha. First of all, he sees Krishna on the loftiest

Menon, Ramesh (2006-07-20). THE MAHABHARATA: A Modern Rendering, Vol 2 (Kindle Locations 10852-10862). iUniverse. Kindle Edition.

throne, with Arjuna beside him and all the Yadavas around them. They rise to receive Yudhishtira. Yudhishtira sees his brother Karna sitting among the twelve Adityas, all sons of Surya. He sees his brother Bheema, his body a swirling air; he sits amidst the Maruts, who are Vayu's magnificent people. Nakula and Sahadeva are with their fathers, the brilliant Aswin twins. Then, sweeping the sabha, Yudhishtira's gaze finds Draupadi. She wears a garland of undying lotuses and she is a great flame in that court; all her sons surround her. Her brother Dhrishtadyumna sits not far from her, with rutilant Agni, the Fire God: their father. Yudhishtira sees Abhimanyu, seated beside the glowing Moon, luminous Soma Deva. The Pandava sees Bheeshma among the Vasus and Drona at Brihaspati's side. He sees his uncle Vidura, now a lord of heaven beside Dharma Deva. In joy, he sees his father Pandu and Kunti and Madri1. His brothers rise and come to welcome Yudhishtira. Karna also rises; and with them comes another familiar figure, his body luculent, kindness and grace in his eyes and his face wreathed in a smile. It is Duryodhana, who is also a king in Devaloka. Now Yudhishtira feels no twinge of resentment and embraces his cousin just as he does his brothers.

Menon, Ramesh (2006-07-20). THE MAHABHARATA: A Modern Rendering, Vol 2 (Kindle Locations 10862-10872). iUniverse. Kindle Edition.

You will find that a lot of Ramesh menon's work does mirror KMG; only that it is more condensed and in modern day English and thus easier to read. KMG offers 20 page descriptions of the Virat war in Shakespearean prose. Thus in my opinion its easier to read RM.
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#84

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Dhritarashtra obtained the regions, so difficult of acquisition, that belong to the Lord of treasures. The famous Gandhari obtained the same regions with her husband Dhritarashtra.

The final paragraph of the epic pretty much nails the coffin about the myth about one's afterlife being determined by one's deeds on earth:


@ red

There is a huge qualification in that line. It says "with devotion". It does not mean that anybosy and every body gets salvation.

Obviously the devotion has to be deep enough to counterbalance that evil deeds mentioned. Devotion does grant salvation

Devotion saved Ratnakar

Devotion saved Ajamila.

But since we never know if our devotion is sincere enough to save us even if we commit grave sins, it is better we stay on the right path.

@ blue

Dritarashtra took Vanaprastha and then sanyasa and performed severe austerities in the forest. That was his prayshchit- and hence salvation.

But on the whole, this whole business of each one landing in some abode or the other- why do we think that it was a wonderful thing to have happened to them? Arriving at So- and so deva's abode is no guarantee of eternal happiness. None of them- except for Arjuna and Yudhishhira got Moksha- and hence they would have to repeat the cycle of birth and death- till their karma is wiped out.

WHo said that Kubera lok or Varuna lok is ultimate destination? Vaikuntha (or Kailash) is- from where there is no re birth.l

This is my opinion. Obviously you have yours. Neither am I going to convince you nor an I going to be convinced by you. Each one has his own perception and interpretation. Who is right and who is wrong- no body can decide.

I would like to end the debate from my side here.







varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#85

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

[ In fact, are the non-KMG recensions unanimous that the Dhartarashtras, for one, didn't end up in heaven?



I quoted the relevant lines a couple of posts ago. Apart from the Southern recension and the Bombay edition I do not not know of any other authentic version. CE is a heavily abridged version- hence I have not referred to it.

Yes both the SR and the Neelkantha version say that that Duryodhana and his brothers landed up in the world of demons. Where KMG got the line that they went to heaven I do not know. According to me, it is a mis translation. I have provided the relevant citations along with the links a couple of posts ago.


Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#86

Originally posted by: .Vrish.





Not just that, if we mortals are such cretins that we could never even begin to comprehend the reasons behind the actions of the gods, then why even begin to read or discuss the scriptures, or mytho texts in the first place? We'd never figure them out, right? So why even bother?




Of course we can read and discuss. That's how we can hope to understand anything at all.

Problem arises when judgments are passed on using our limited human perception.

It is like a small infant being administered vaccinations. The baby can never understand why its parents are subjecting it to the pain of injections. But just because the baby cannot comprehend why it is being made to suffer pain, does it mean the parents are cruel?

That's my opinion. If we find some of god's actions difficult to comprehend, it is because of our limited understanding.

But the beauty is, our understanding need not be limited forever. Depending on our spiritual progress and the sincerity of our quest, answers will definitely be revealed to us.

Read the scriptures and definitely ask questions. But, I feel, instead of jumping to conclusions and passing judgments it may be more worthwhile to try and read the commentaries (bhashyas) written by great masters of the past. Who knows, our questions may be answered there.

I, for one - and this is my honest sincere belief - believe that MB is not just a thriller novel. It is a treasure trove and there are several layers of meaning hidden in its depths. KMG's is just one explanation- and not the most perfect one either.

How many of us can understand the Bhagavta Gita- without any English / Hindi explanation? Then how can we claim to understand the rest of the MB? Not just understand, but we are even dissecting and passing judgments too?


In the Adi Parva, Vaishampayana says "Itihaasa Puranabhyam Vedarambyrayet" What the Vedas proclaim can be understood through History and Puranas.

So, when we cannot even hope to understand a fraction of the teachings of Vedas, how can we think we know everything that the MB is trying to say ?

I have only expressed my thoughts and the belief with which I approach the epic. Having said this , I am withdrawing from the forum. Adieu.





Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#87
he was the real culprit n man who staked his brothers n wife all ,,,what dharm he followed n that dumbo idiot charvarthy raja ,,,he di not desrve to be raja but slave or sweeper only 💔heaven kahey ka jayega all is false
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Posted: 11 years ago
#88

Originally posted by: varaali


Regarding this line, tell me - anyone who is reading this- what did you understand by it.

I will give you my explanation later



Since I had offered to explain this, here goes:

IF Dwapara meant the Third Yuga, it doesn't make much sense for Shakuni to be absorbed into a Yuga that had already elapsed. Dwapara Yuga had already ceased- so how can Shakuni be absorbed into a past age?

If you notice, each of the characters got absorbed into a loka from where they originated or which defined their personality.

"Dwapara"- also means 'Dice / Gambling Personified". Shakuni went into the world of Dice and Gambling. And as we know from SB, the gambling houses were one of the places where Kali could reside.

Now tell me, didn't Shakuni get his just desserts?


Edited by varaali - 11 years ago
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Posted: 11 years ago
#89
beacause he was DHARAMRAAJ, he never did anything wrong, he did not have an ego , he was not presumptuous or arrogant...
He was very humble n not egoistic at all...
He was forgiving n righteous...

The reasons why he lost draupadi in Dice-game n his reasons for not saving her are being shown in the serial very aptly...
He , like all others was bound by his dharma...
N before u point questions that his dharma n what was right n wrong...

All these were reasons(the ques by draupadi, getting victimised at the hands of evil due to following dharma ) for krishna to give the preachings of THE GEETA.....

Yudhishtir's mistakes(or his percieved dharma) were like questions to which Krishna gave answers to us all as the GEETA...
The main msg here is that "Change is the way of life"... With new problems come new types of solutions...
sometimes to protect dharma, we need to do a lil adharma which is just to protect dharma n does not harm anyone else...
Edited by saakhi01 - 11 years ago

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