A Rare Gem! - Page 5

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sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#41
Mandy dearest,

By now I am tired of explaining that to say that Akbar was one of most underappreciated rulers in Indian history is just not correct, for it seems to have no impact on you folks at all.

I see that you have read my response to Raksha where I have gone into that aspect in detail. But now here you go again: Akbar but akbar was never given that well deserved spot in history or in people's heart! just because to hindus he was a foreigner and for his own clan he was a traitor.

This too, my very dear girl, is simply NOT correct. What you have stated above is clearly contradicted by the facts that I have cited in my reply to Raksha.

Why on earth are you of all people, so intelligent and perceptive, suddenly developing this persecution complex re: Akbar, one which is completely unwarranted? How on earth are you making such sweeping generalisations about "Hindus" to whom "he was a foreigner"? Which Hindus are you talking about? I am a Hindu and I adore Akbar and I could cite dozens of my Hindu friends who do too, and there must be millions across India who share the same opinion. Don't use such a broad brush, Mandy, it is like walking on quicksand.

And as for Mountbatten, every British ruler's views on any subject focused only on one thing - advancing British interests by setting the Indians against each other. There were no exceptions to this rule. Why, it seems that even 67 years later, he is still able to do this, and that too within this forum!!😉

Discrimination exists everywhere, at all times. Women are constantly discriminated against, oppressed, suppressed and exploited all over the world by partiarchal societies,which is the greatest discrimination of all. 3 decades ago, "Madrasis" were still discriminated against in the North. Jews are still often discriminated against, openly and covertly depending on the place and the times. African Americans are discriminated against. Your community was discriminated against after 1984, though before that and, happily, now again they are the most admired and respected minority in our country for their bravery and their loyalty. Every variety of discrimination is very, very sad, and one has to fight to overcome it, as Gandhiji did for the Harijans and Dr.Martin Luther King did for the brutal racist discrimination againstAfrican-Americans in the deep south of the US.

But Akbar has NOT been discriminated against in India, whether by the people or by the academics.
Rejoice in that, Mandy dearest, and do not weep over slights that do not exist.

All concerned please note that this is NOT history, it is NOT history, it is NOT history!!

Between the lot of you, you are surely going to get me kicked out of the forum. I begin to think this is a concerted conspiracy to achieve precisely that objective!!😉😉😉

Shyamala

Originally posted by: mandyg

Edited by sashashyam - 11 years ago

sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#42
Sandhya my pet,

Beautifully and forcefully put👏, but then that is you all the time!

Do take a look at my response to Raksha on page 5 and to Mandy on this page. I am quitting this 'Akbar is underappreciated' debate now, before I get another warning, despite my prominent disclaimers, for discussing "historical issues" outside the designated thread. I let other people drag me into these discussions, and it is always I who cop it!

Shyamala Aunty

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A


Donjas
Akbar was Great. And surely without Jodha begum's tuitions and Maheshdas' so called intelligence and wit. Nothing that any sena can do can change that.

Even the loudest applauders of Hemu and MP cannot take away Akbar's greatness even if they intend to. Of course i don't deny the shaan of either of the kings, but ultimately Jo jeeta wohi sikandar. And Akbar was a winner...Whether it be of the land of Hindustan or its people. Mughals ceased to be foreign invaders and became a part of Hindustan since his rule. That is no mean achievement.

And that he started from the scratches and achieved it so big also makes him great. Not many warriors and emperors are called great.

His greatness can withstand and overcome any slander from any biased group and any silly portrayal by any tv show.

As for Ashoka's 4 lions, why not? He too was great. Praising one doesn't reduce another. Just as calling Akbar and Ashoka great doesn't take away the achievements of Chandragupta Maurya or Harsha.



chitterati thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#43

Originally posted by: elasingh

Look Donjas no one can denegrate Jalal or anybody as no one can take away any one's achievements...Agar Akbar par keechad uchalenge toh khud par bhi girega...and who is RSS? Why do you think all hindus are influenced by RSS? ...I am a hindu and frankly I dont even bother abt them...but I think we as a country are very intolerant...We just hate to hear critisism...I love Jallu and I am equally in love with MP...I..I respect Hemu's failed effort ...I respect marathas and I also respect Tipu and Haider Ali...


Well said Ela, I absolutely do not agree that Akbar has in anyway be let down by Indians or Indian historians or any other group that matters. A very basic testament of this fact that He is one of the very few if not the only historical figure on whom a popular movie and a TRP ruling show is based.

As an Indian the one thing I am most proud of in our culture is it's inclusivity and tolerance, and to say that Indians have not respected or embraced Akbar as he was an invader or a Mughal is hurtful to say the least.

Coming to RSS, and it's "extremist Hindu propaganda" I would recommend folks to look beyond the media hype, and try to attend atleast one RSS session on weekends, there are bad apples in every bunch, but one should not generalise a vast organisation based on a select few, personally I have seen and been part of a lot a social good that is done by the organisation for ALL members of society irrespective of cast, creed or religion
elasingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#44

Originally posted by: chitterati


Well said Ela, I absolutely do not agree that Akbar has in anyway be let down by Indians or Indian historians or any other group that matters. A very basic testament of this fact that He is one of the very few if not the only historical figure on whom a popular movie and a TRP ruling show is based.

As an Indian the one thing I am most proud of in our culture is it's inclusivity and tolerance, and to say that Indians have not respected or embraced Akbar as he was an invader or a Mughal is hurtful to say the least.

Coming to RSS, and it's "extremist Hindu propaganda" I would recommend folks to look beyond the media hype, and try to attend atleast one RSS session on weekends, there are bad apples in every bunch, but one should not generalise a vast organisation based on a select few, personally I have seen and been part of a lot a social good that is done by the organisation for ALL members of society irrespective of cast, creed or religion

Charu I fail to understand this fhobia that Akbar can not be criticied and if he is then it means that hindus are doing injustice to him...Now as far as I am concerned Akbar is not god and he must be having his weak points too...Look at Ashoka...In history he is way above Akbar in greatness ...read the messages written on his pillars, That shows his greatness, but he too is critised so much by historians especially Marxists...Gandhi and Buddha are way way above Akbar but they are severally critised too...and even if RSS has arrenged seminar on Hemu the forgotten Hindu hero, I feel they have every right to do so...There might be some ppl in society to whom Akbar was a foreigner and Hemu was an Indian , and they have a right to express their views...
And yes I agree Charu that nothing survives in this world if it is not fullfilling certain role in this world...So if a vast organisation like RSS is surviving then it must be doing what it is destined to do...
I wonder if Akbar would have gotten so much applause in any other country ...I seriously doubt it...It is this greatness of India that it has always risen above religion and caste and creed and embraced the good deeds of others and accepted them as her own...I salute India...👏
sashashyam thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#45
Perfectly put, Ela and Charu. I loved both your takes, and Ela, ours is the country that gave Mother Teresa a State funeral. She was an icon, true, but that too could not have happened anywhere else.

Besides I am tired of this theme that Akbar is not valued at his true worth in India, and that he cannot be criticised and must be declared perfect in all respects. I agree with you that he too must have had many grey spots and even black ones like Chittor, but the overall balance is what counts.

I simply cannot understand why there is suddenly this strange debate between Asoka and Akbar and evaluating one higher than the other, and lamenting over a non-existent neglect of Akbar. I am by now tired of trying to rebut this thesis on the basis of facts, for that seems to have no impact at all.

And yes, I love my India, and no one can question the fact that we are one of the most accepting and tolerant societies on earth. I have lived in 13 different countries in the course of my diplomatic career, and I am by now convinced of this.

Shyamala

Originally posted by: elasingh


Charu I fail to understand this fhobia that Akbar can not be criticied and if he is then it means that hindus are doing injustice to him...Now as far as I am concerned Akbar is not god and he must be having his weak points too...Look at Ashoka...In history he is way above Akbar in greatness ...read the messages written on his pillars, That shows his greatness, but he too is critised so much by historians especially Marxists...Gandhi and Buddha are way way above Akbar but they are severally critised too...and even if RSS has arrenged seminar on Hemu the forgotten Hindu hero, I feel they have every right to do so...There might be some ppl in society to whom Akbar was a foreigner and Hemu was an Indian , and they have a right to express their views...
And yes I agree Charu that nothing survives in this world if it is not fullfilling certain role in this world...So if a vast organisation like RSS is surviving then it must be doing what it is destined to do...
I wonder if Akbar would have gotten so much applause in any other country ...I seriously doubt it...It is this greatness of India that it has always risen above religion and caste and creed and embraced the good deeds of others and accepted them as her own...I salute India...👏


Originally posted by: chitterati

Well said Ela, I absolutely do not agree that Akbar has in anyway be let down by Indians or Indian historians or any other group that matters. A very basic testament of this fact that He is one of the very few if not the only historical figure on whom a popular movie and a TRP ruling show is based.


As an Indian the one thing I am most proud of in our culture is it's inclusivity and tolerance, and to say that Indians have not respected or embraced Akbar as he was an invader or a Mughal is hurtful to say the least.

Coming to RSS, and it's "extremist Hindu propaganda" I would recommend folks to look beyond the media hype, and try to attend atleast one RSS session on weekends, there are bad apples in every bunch, but one should not generalise a vast organisation based on a select few, personally I have seen and been part of a lot a social good that is done by the organisation for ALL members of society irrespective of cast, creed or religion


Originally posted by: elasingh

Look Donjas no one can denegrate Jalal or anybody as no one can take away any one's achievements...Agar Akbar par keechad uchalenge toh khud par bhi girega...and who is RSS? Why do you think all hindus are influenced by RSS? ...I am a hindu and frankly I dont even bother abt them...but I think we as a country are very intolerant...We just hate to hear critisism...I love Jallu and I am equally in love with MP...I..I respect Hemu's failed effort ...I respect marathas and I also respect Tipu and Haider Ali...



adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#46
Shyamala, I dont think there was any intent of comparing - in fact these two emperors cannot be compared - their circumstances and environments were different - and if they were in each other's situation, how they would respond is anybody's guess - as for the use of the Sarnath Pillar for the emblem - as I said the makers of the Indian constitution were wise enuff to choose that which signifies inclusivity as well as peace - ours being a pluralist country - and as for India - she is more than just a country - she is an idea, a concept - that celebrates difference by including all into her folds and both Akbar and Ashoka embodied this spirit of hers - and as long as India is Akbar will be and so will Ashoka and every such person who enbodies this spirit - India does not need time and space to exist just for this reason - all this said, yes there is a certain wave of intolerance and exclusion that is currently at play but then as they say 'the darkest hour of the night is before dawn' - perhaps this is that darkest hour !
Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#47

Originally posted by: adiana12

btw if I am not mistaken, the lion and the rising sun both were the banners for Akbar

Adi,
Wasn't lion the symbol of many kings? Even our Raja Raja Chola had the lion banner on his flag. Cholas are synonymous with the lion symbol. There was nothing so specific about Akbar's lion. Was there?
adiana12 thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#48
Sands this was just to convey that the use of lions as emblems and symbols have been in vogue by many emperors due to what they signify and as I have said in another post, perhaps even this was the reason it was chosen by Ashoka for the Sarnath pillars and other pillars - there is nothing specific of anyone lion - there is specific in the use of lion as a royal emblem by many emperors and kings and this specificity comes from the symbolism of the lion - my statement was just that the use of the lion has been universal.

Originally posted by: Sandhya.A


</div><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Adi,</font>
<div><font face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif">Wasn't lion the symbol of many kings? Even our Raja Raja Chola had the lion banner on his flag. Cholas are synonymous with the lion symbol. There was nothing so specific about Akbar's lion. Was there?</font>

Sandhya.A thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#49
Mandy
Akbar may be rendered injustice at by the heroine-philic EK who in her attempt to portray Jodha as a superwoman, has made a mockery of his greatness, by crediting all his achievements indirectly to her. By lauding a lady put incharge of a cavalry of 12000 sky high and underrating a man who ruled the entire Hindustan with such a firm yet benevolent hand who was so open minded that he saw no difference in religion or gender.
But everyone else in India loves him for what he was. As for those who see him as a traitor, they too very well know that they became a part of this land only due to his vision and ideas, else they would have remained foreigners forever in India.
There are exceptions to everything, but as a country, we are one of the most unprejudiced, open minded and undiscriminating lot. There have been differences, power play based on those differences, but there has been an undercurrent of tolerance and unity amidst them all. That is why we have survived and retained our importance since the days of the Indus Valley Civilisation. There have been super-powers who have broken and been reduced, but we have never claimed to be the greatest nor have disintegrated. Time and again, we have had Chandragupta Mauryas ,Ashokas and Akbars and Siddharths and Mahaviras and Gandhis and regional great kings who have upheld the spirit of the nation. We have accepted everything good into our fold.
So as long as India exists as one nation, Akbar will never be forgotten for what he was. So cheer up. He is not underrated at all. Ekta is not the one who decides. Look up at the History text books. Akbar is hailed among the best. Even regarding those who wish to project Jodha so high, feel pleased that they wish to establish her as his favourite as it is an honour to be the favourite of one so great.
And Ela
Yes. Jodha deserves to be praised as she accepted and fitted into the Mughal groove and made it her own. But Akbar accepted and fitted into Hindustan and made the entire country and its people his own. Isn't that a hundred times more remarkable.⭐️
elasingh thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#50
Sandhya first of all Akbar was not the emperor of whole of Hindustan and secondly He accepted all the religions as equal in his quest for truth and sprituality but I am sorry Sandhya I wont call him hundreds of times more remarkable then Jo...I respect him and admire him but unlike others I do so inspite of his faults...He was a shrewd leader and consolidated the thrown for his children...I am sorry but I am just not as crazy a fan of his ...
Edited by elasingh - 11 years ago

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