Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 4

Originally posted by: Vinzy

This is a very complicated situation. I agree that Devyani was unable to pay an amount as big as 4500$ to her maid as her own salary is lesser than that,but I also don't agree that she should have broken the US law...

This is an embarrassing precedent which our Diplomats have been indulging for all these years. See the loopholes of "labour laws for diplomats" are misused . I concede she has broken a law and should be tried but according to the diplomatic stature.

But

I'm assuming someone who was capable of becoming an IFS office was also capable of comprehending the terms of the contract she had signed. Secondly, it seems that Devyani owns two properties in the Adarsh Society in Mumbai which is part of a larger land scam which I am sure is worth crores, so it appears strange to me that our Government bureaucrats can afford and own super expensive apartments but claim they earn a certain amount and therefore cannot pay wages.

Vinzy- Comeon . You suddenly sound like Mayawati using the dalit card for India's delayed reaction here. If she is guilty of more corruption then she should be tried by Indian court. Conspiracies can be handled later.

Thirdly my research states that once her domestic staff demanded the rightful amount that was due to her, a series of legal cases were filled against this poor woman and her family by this powerful bureaucrat and her husband and child were taken in police custody.

But the domestic help did sign and agreed on the wages before she took the plane. If she is capable of understanding her labour laws in US then sure as well would have remembered them before agreeing to this disparity. If her husband and her child were taken in custody then shame on Indian authorities and they can be sued and shamed. But since i am ignorant of this development , I choose to wait on this.

The crime was commited in the USA, an Indian court has no rulling over it, like it or not. Modern slavery, is what it is called !!!😊

Disagree- Considering the employee vs employer in this case were from same nationality - India and had ongoing trial about their arrangement , this does become an important piece of evidence in any court. A similar offence by diplomats is met by an immediate removal from the office and suspension in case of friendly bilateral relations. Hence the astonishment, makes many view if it is part of changing shift in Indo-US relations.

Modern Slavery is debated if we analyze the economic condition of the employer.

The argument here is not about proving her guilty or not. The issue lies in the interpretation of Vienna Convention in regards to diplomatic immunity . Also about the subsequent arrest and nature of it.

Originally posted by: charminggenie

The argument here is not about proving her guilty or not. The issue lies in the interpretation of Vienna Convention in regards to diplomatic immunity . Also about the subsequent arrest and nature of it.

While the govt is right in its indignation and retaliatory measures there is an urgent need for it to resolve the issues that led to this impasse, if it hopes to prevent its officials from being subjected to such humiliation. The core issue is an economic gap- a maid New York has to be paid more than a full-time Indian diplomat in New York. Any Indian diplomat who brings domestic workers to the West will end up underpaying them according to local law. Thereafter he or she runs the risk of having the worker go to the local authorities with claims of being paid below legal wages. Until this is resolved, almost every Indian diplomat with household help will be skirting the law when they live in a high-wage economy. A further complication is ever-stricter international codes on human trafficking. A foreigner brought to work in a home in the West can now receive asylum and citizenship if he or she is able to prove her employer defrauded or otherwise maltreated them. Automatically, the incentive to level such charges against an employer increases. It needs to be realized that if the maid was underpaid it was because of the absurd discrepancy that exists between the wage scales of India and the West.

If Indian diplomats cannot be paid more, then New Delhi needs to work out an alternative arrangement by which its diplomats can avail catering, entertainment and house-cleaning services overseas " perhaps local companies could be hired for part time services. Full time maids would pose concerns for confidentiality given the increasing incidents of snooping that can be expected in such sensitive posts. Another option could be to have these assistants for the diplomats on the govt pay-roll instead of the diplomats. That way the diplomats would not be held responsible for their wages.

This may seem harsh to Indians where officials tend to get special privileges. However, from USA perspective all criminals receive equal treatment under the eyes of laws. It doesn't matter if it is a high ranking powerful official of an organization representing several nations or a simple consular worker of a nation. It doesn't matter if the diplomatic alliance is friendly or tense, all criminals are treated the same. Why do Indians believe that Ms. Khobragade was mistreated or treated unfairly?

It is common understanding that you have to make some sort of cost of living adjustments when you have employees abroad. The minimum wage of $7.25/hr is considered at poverty line. Anything below $5.00/hr would be considered slavery or bonded labor in USA that is an unfathomable amount below poverty. In New York the cost of living is significantly higher and the minimum wage is $9.00/hr. You would be hovering close to the poverty line at that salary. To pay someone a mere $3.31/hr in New York is beyond shocking. I don't think people in India really grasp exactly how horrid and criminal that pay is in USA.

That being said, underpayment of the maid is the tertiary issue in this scenario. The biggest concern is the Visa fraud and misinformation. Ms. Khobragade filed a visa for the maid with the claim that she would be paid $4,500/mo. She obtained that Visa under false information. That is roughly $26.00/hr. She could have easily obtained a maid close to $9.00/hr within USA without having to bring someone in. So to bring someone specialized in at a false claim and then pay them criminally low wages is fraudulent and modern day slavery. This is breaking of USA law about immigration and wage standards and it was completely US jurisdiction, not Indias.

This situation is about how a country handles diplomatic crime on its soil. How a country treats its diplomats abroad is separate matter. USA has always had the stance to back its diplomats and citizens. It even tries to protect citizens who are in trouble wherever feasible. It is deplorable that it protects crimes as severe as murder. The USA stance is that the criminals should be tried in criminal courts because our justice system is better structured than other nations (cocky and pretentious). If a USA diplomat is in trouble the USA will try to remove them from the nation before arrest. If arrested or detained, the USA uses negotiations, bilateral and quid pro quo agreements to get the person released. I think every country has a right to back their diplomats and citizens and have such arrangements. I understand a certain level of moral outrage over the Khobragade incident, but the reactions were uncalled for a standard protocol for criminals was followed. The threats to slap criminal charges on US diplomats and even send them back was even more over the top. I also think it would be grossly unfair to single out US diplomats because USA was definitely not singling out an Indian diplomat. Other countries are also welcome to make their criminal procedures tough and standardized across the board as well.

Originally posted by: charminggenie

Devyani Khobragade's crime with her position is not covered by diplomatic immunity of the Vienna convention.

- The USA has cited explanations why this was not Devyani Khobragade's crime was not exempt under Vienna convention. I think an international court will have to decide whose claim is true, whose is not.

- The principle of USA law is fairness. I agree that it is not always implemented impartially. However, can you explain the motive and rationale behind singling out an Indian diplomat and treating her unfairly?

- I know there are exceptions from the minimum wages. If so then Ms. Khobragade should have applied for an exemption, not defrauded the visa papers. Also I don't think the allowed exemptions are as low as $2.21. Exemptions would also vary by location.

- Ms. Khobragade is getting the average wage. At $4400.00/mo is making a similar wage to US FSO at her level, a wee bit higher actually.

- The officers were given orders for arrest. They followed protocol. They didn't intend to unfairly be harsh on Khobograde. It was standard first response. However, no one is denying citing friendly relationships beyond first response. You can always negotiate that to get the officer released to Indian custody/deported, be exempted from trial in USA etc or even waive the charges if feasible. But don't act like a petulant child over first response when no discrimination or harm was intended.

- Yes. Under IPC 377 India has complete rights to arrest diplomats and foreign visitors who are gay. However, considering that IPC 377 has just been reinstated they should give notice to the embassies to allow time for change in staff. Also it should be across the board for all nations who allow gay marriages or domestic partnership. Because again I reiterate, this was not an action against "India" but action against a criminal "individual" .

- I'm not saying diplomacy should be one sided. All I said was USA has a policy for unconditional backing of diplomats and citizens. USA even tried to get Amanda Knox out. Other countries don't have that policy. I don't agree that criminals should be abetted. But that is a discrepancy of choice, not discrepancy of diplomatic reciprocity.

- Never said USA justice system was flawless. I said it was pretentious and cocky of US to think so. Casey Anthony, George Zimmerman are more examples. I was just stating that it is a US belief. Which is not completely unsubstantiated. There are countries where most countries would find the justice systems objectionable.

- See first point about Vienna convention.

- I'm not suggesting standardizing diplomacy. I suggested standardizing first response.

- India has every right to fight tooth and nail for its diplomats. Firstly, India doesn't have a set policy on who and how it will back. It backs people arbitrarily. Secondly, negotiation and diplomacy should be the first tactic. Sanctions, embargos and withdrawal of privileges second. The final option should be retaliation. I believe USA has followed that. And if it hasn't then the USA is wrong. But again I reiterate, the issue was made of a first response without even knowing if USA was willing to negotiate and release said person or even drop/reduce charges.

- I think we are venturing into war'. There is always conflict between war alliances/treaties and diplomacy. That being said I do believe many US officials are guilty of war crimes. They can and should be tried in international military courts. But again, war crimes are a separate issue from diplomatic ties.

- Again statement one. Both parties have a different interpretation of immunities granted by the convention. Which party interpreted Vienna convention incorrectly or correctly is to be seen.

Originally posted by: _Angie_

Allow me also to ask you if it is patriotism or obligation to US that prompts you to take such a narrow view on this issue.

Originally posted by: zorrro

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how do you suggest she was to comply with the minimum wages law ? Sell all her property in India so that she could pay wages fixed by USA?

By not having champagne on a beer budget. By not living beyond one's means. By not buying goods or services that one cannot afford.


How many people in the world sell properties to pay wages 😆 salary earned at Indian rates, Property was bought at Indian rates , wages to be paid at US rates

Even though Ms. Khobragade's salary is irrelevant to the charges she's facing, because some of you are constantly harping on her "meager" salary, I need to see proof of her compensation structure while in US. Other than word of mouth, there is no factual evidence floating around that says Ms. Khobragade earned at Indian rates.

How was that amount rightfully demanded? She had accepted the lesser pay before leaving for US but later slapped the exploitation charge on landing in US 😉

Are you sure it was the maid who slapped the exploitation charges on Ms. Khobragade?

If other countries start implementing their local rulings on US officers on their land imagine their plight. High time they did 😆

They should. No one is stopping them. If not for the sake of US, then for the sake of their own countrymen.