Exploitation of employee or blackmail of employer? (Khobragade case) - Page 2

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souro thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: K.Universe.




The allegations against Ms. Khobragade were that she caused a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented, and materially false and fraudulent statements to be made, to the US department of state in support of a visa application. Keepinmg that context in mind, what constitutes "equal terms" here? Did you already decide that Ms. Khobragade is not guilty of the said allegations which is why you want to fradulently charge an innocent US official (any innocent US official for that matter) currently serving in India? Would you like to share that information that exonerates Ms. Khobragade?




What is inconsequential here? The alleged crime (visa fraud and worker exploitation) or the crime in comparison to what is purportedly at stake? Is there a precedent based on which you are conjecturing that bilateral relations would be affected? If anything, isn't this the second instance, in recent times, of a senior Indian foreign service officer (Neena Malhotra being the other) in New York facing charges linked to human trafficking?



Ms. Khobragade is an Indian diplomat. She is not a terrorist or someone who would've fled or posed immediate danger. She draws salary by Indian standards, not US standards. Her maid had fled and Indian court had issued a warrant against her. In light of all this, they could've handled the situation better even if they decided to act on the maid's complaint. But they decided to act high handed by arresting and handcuffing her in public and then strip searching her. And that in my book makes US diplomats in India fair game.

And on what basis I'm saying that bilateral relations can get affected. See Indian govt. snubbing the US delegation currently visiting India. Read how US govt. commented a statement saying that they hoped this incident won't hamper bilateral relations. No one does those if everything is just fine. And any strain in relation is an opening for another country to warm up and win a contract or two. So yes, neither US nor India will want that.
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#12
Mr K - I don't think anyone is giving a clean chit to the diplomat but it is the way the arrest was conducted and the after conduct which is drawing the flak. i won't comment on her innocence- I see there is a discrepancy as far as documentations presented is concerned. She did had a legal case going against the said employee in India and have earned an injunction which prevented the maid from approaching law in US since she was absconding. Not sure how US laws sees it , but the law of the land should prevail However as the details of her arrest have come- she was strip-searched , placed with hard criminals with some of them being convicted terrorists and many more inhuman behavior is reported. If I am not wrong she has be accused of human trafficking as well, which I fail to understand since she duly reported the escape of her employee and was taking legal steps towards it.
The criticism is about the behavior the authorities showed which neither is in conform with her crime nor her diplomatic status
As a friendly nation India expects US govt to be sensitive . Taking your example the case of Namita , Sr IFS , was not highlighted as much as this one;. This doesn't auger well for International relations.

India has taken a very strong line - with several services of US embassy suspended for the time being and asking for explanation for the inhuman treatment of the diplomat.

My view is solely based on the conduct not on the accusations. I understand diplomatic immunity doesn't hold water in this case though.
_Angie_ thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#13

The case was handled quite insensitively by the US authorities. The treatment meted out to the Indian diplomat was quite inappropriate to the gravity of the alleged crime and her diplomatic status. The plea given by a US State Department official was that the said Indian diplomat wasnt covered by the VCCR (Vienna convention on Consular Relations) in this matter because "the Indian Deputy Consul General enjoys immunity from the jurisdiction of US courts only with respect to acts performed in the exercise of consular functions". However, regardless of any Visa fraud allegedly committed by the diplomat, US has violated international law on two counts at least, once by arresting a foreign consular officer and a second time by handcuffing the consular officer. The US clearly does not consider the appointment of personal employees by a consular official important to the execution of consular functions whereas the Indians would differ. The functional necessity of a housemaid by a diplomat who is also a young mother with two kids could be debated.

The maid in question certainly does not come across as a victim to me. If anyone it is the diplomat who was caught unawares by her scheming maid. Obtaining US citizenship by any means seems to have been the maid's goal . Was she being underpaid and exploited? I don't think so. She had accepted the pay and service terms before leaving for US. In all probability her travelling expenses, health insurance, food, lodging, clothing and other amenities were paid for by her employers and did not get accounted for while calculating her wages. Its been calculated that at $ 9.75 per hour plus the overtime services that would be expected due to travelling at short notices with the diplomat and late working hrs of the official, the maid's wages could exceed the Indian diplomat's salary!

The Indian authorities are rightly incensed at the treatment by the US authorities. They had sought help from US in tracing the absconding maid but instead were greeted with getting their official handcuffed, strip searched and confined with common criminals with total disregard to her diplomatic status. The Indian counterparts would be very much within their rights to retaliate in a similar manner . All the same, resorting to false charges is highly unacceptable no matter what the provocation. Indian authorities would have no trouble in retaliating through fair means should they decide to do so. They could start by frisking all the US diplomats at the airport as a security measure. They could also retaliate by not sparing those guilty of breaking any Indian domestic law. I wonder what happens if a US diplomat is found guilty and charged under the controversial section 377 . Would diplomatic immunity apply in that case! Those who do not believe in diplomacy do not deserve any themselves. Bilateral relations are bound to suffer.

Edited by _Angie_ - 11 years ago
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#14
Second you Angie!
She is not eligible for immunity as she is working in some consular capacity. VCCR only covers for embassy based work.

The argument against wages is crazy, because if US probes all other diplomats from other nations, it would be such a mess. The Indian diplomat is paid way less than what US recommends as nominal fee. Also Indian govt was seeking support to trace the maid for the last few months. Highly insensitive handling, reflects poor on America.

India has reacted very strongly , reducing the security covers, barricades, has taken their Ids and has refused to meet the Congress Delegation . Unconditional apology is a must here. In a normal case, Us would have appeal to the Indian govt, they would have recalled her and posted her elsewhere. Handcuffing , strip searching is steps taken too far!
K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: souro

Ms. Khobragade is an Indian diplomat. She is not a terrorist or someone who would've fled or posed immediate danger.



The diplomatic security in US apparently followed standard procedures when arresting Ms. Khobragade. She submitted materially false and fraudulent documents and what ensued is how the law in US deals with such serious charges.


Originally posted by: souro

She draws salary by Indian standards, not US standards .



Ms. Khobragade's salary is immaterial to the discussion on hand.



Originally posted by: souro

Her maid had fled and Indian court had issued a warrant against her. .



A witch-hunt initiated by the influential Khobragades, backed by a banana republic government. However, this doesn't affect the allegations themselves leveled against Ms. Khobragade, which are a) causing a materially false and fraudulent document to be presented b) making materially false and fraudulent statements.

Originally posted by: souro

In light of all this, they could've handled the situation better even if they decided to act on the maid's complaint. But they decided to act high handed by arresting and handcuffing her in public and then strip searching her.



They took her to a cell. Again, standard procedures. Surely, you don't expect them to take her to Ritz Carlton?


Originally posted by: souro

And that in my book makes US diplomats in India fair game.



You are being evasive in defining what constitutes a "fair game" in this scenario. I gave you the context and asked you to present your version of "equal terms" when dealing with the US diplomats currently posted in India. Sure, if they did a crime, they will have to do the time. But you were advocating arresting them, even if it means on unfounded accusations, which is what I questioned and which is what you are back-pedaling on. It's simple. Complete the sentence. "I am in favor of arresting US diplomats posted in India, even if it means I have to do it on false premises, because _________________________"


return_to_hades thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#16
Interesting debate here. I'm not too familiar with all the facts, but it seems like the Indian media is reporting a very one sided story. I'm sure we are getting a one side here as well. Will see how the case progresses and what facts come out.
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#17

Oh this makes me wonder about your take when an American diplomat fled Kenya after crushing a local and his family under the wrath of his speedy sedan. The whole of American embassy rallied together and made sure the diplomat and his family were out of country. Sigh ! you see it was Kenya , doubt it made noise in the big old American land and the noises from the African nation were ignored. This happened this Aug. Read it!

If you want to follow the book, by all means strike the margins even but make sure you fall through yourself!
Edited by charminggenie - 11 years ago
K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#18

Originally posted by: souro

And you know that because? You are a member of Khobragade family? You are member of the maid's family? Ms. Khobragade told you herself that she initiated it on false ground?



I don't understand the question. Are you asking how do I know that the allegations are true (which obviously I don't because she's not convicted yet, she was merely arrested and released on bail, the trial is pending, which makes it a faulty line of inquiry by you?) or are you asking how do I know if the witch-hunt was for real (where was the need to take her husband and child into custody back in July? Where was the need to revoke Richard's official passport? Where was the need to request the US State Department to locate Richard and return her to India? Where was the need to issue an order to restrain Richard from instituting any action or proceedings against Dr Khobragade? Where was the need to issue a notice to Richard's husband Philip in Delhi? Are these justified enough before you question the witch-hunt part of my allegation?)

Originally posted by: souro

And I think you're really losing it now and becoming desperate. Seriously, India a banana republic?



Not quite! I am not the only one seeing it for what it is. Your own Kejriwal said, and I quote, ""Will I-T find anything if it conducts raids or surveys? Raids are conducted in secrecy. This is how CBI conducts raids after grand announcements. And what happened to Robert Vadra? Does any agency have guts to even summon him or investigate him. He is so right. It's a banana republic!"

But I understand that proving that India is a banana republic is beyond the scope of the discussion here so I will retract that impromptu remark.

Originally posted by: souro


Evasive? I think I stated it pretty clearly, that when it is the matter of country and when dealing with other countries, I don't believe in being scrupulous. Read it as: if someone is being unfair, get them to taste their own medicine by hook or crook. Another way to read it, there are thousands of laws that no one knows about and no one cares about, get them through one those.



What makes you think that Ms. Khobragade was arrested "by crook" that you are looking for an equivalent retaliation? Seems to me that she was arrested "by hook".

I don't know which "thousands of" laws you have in mind that no one cares about, but I can guarantee that labor laws aren't among those. Underpayment of minimum wages and non-compliance is not taken lightly in developed nations. Neither is material misrepresenation of facts.

K.Universe. thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#19

Originally posted by: charminggenie


Oh this makes me wonder about your take when an American diplomat fled Kenya after crushing a local and his family under the wrath of his speedy sedan. The whole of American embassy rallied together and made sure the diplomat and his family were out of country. Sigh ! you see it was Kenya , doubt it made noise in the big old American land and the noises from the African nation were ignored. This happened this Aug. Read it!



Tragic. He should be tried for homicide. The US government should recompense for injury and loss.

Edited by K.Universe. - 11 years ago
charminggenie thumbnail
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Posted: 11 years ago
#20
@Mr K - You see the general outrage, this is one of many homicidal cases where American diplomats were involved and have gone scout free on grounds of immunity ( never verified). Shouldn't astonish that none were tired but each nation was duly handed a letter of co-operation from US govt.
I would use the term " Festina Lente" which has not been followed by both US and Indian authorities.

I agree the labour laws of America should be respected and duly followed. When in Rome , do as Romans. Infact this should call a nation wide ponder on minimum labour wages in India. Therefore if Ms khobragade is found guilty on all accounts , she should be severely reprimanded by Indian govt considering here both Employer Vs Employee are Indians and a due trial was undergoing in Indian Court for the past few months.
What has been a tradition and a protocol in friendlier nations, the local govt lodges a compliant with the High Commission and the assigned officer is immediately transferred suspended by the native authorities especially in matters of visa/documentation fraud.

Another peculiar matter is the application of labour laws for Diplomats. I believe a good number of nations are free from practicing American norms as they enjoy exempt on diplomatic grounds. This is due to the economic factors of such countries. I don't think India falls under the category but it still doesn't take the ambiguity surrounding it.

In this particular case, I feel she has erred in procuring visa for the employee under false documentations but she has been involved in a heavy legal battle for the same back in India and her office did declare the maid as an abscounder. This does raise an eyebrow that US authorities were aware of the Indian court involvement so should have approached the Embassy to extend their displeasure and strictly asked for her immediate removal. Not an unseen precedent for a developed nation with a friendly ties.

Now where the attorney office I feel acted on haste is handcuffing a diplomat (not charged for homicidal cases) and conducting bodily search both heavily marked as uncalled behavior by Vienna Convention. Most of the sensible outrage is towards this action. It could have dealt with a lot more sensitivity and dignity considering the diplomatic ring to it.

I for one don't like when our Leaders , Actors make a hue and cry over the security checks, those are in absolute National interest. But again , should be a standardized procedure without any discrimination.

Now for US media , Indian reaction might be a little too loud. But consider the MEA office right now, they are bargaining for the release of a Capt jailed in Tongo ( pirate issues) and trying to punish the Italian Marines who murdered on Indian soil. The office is under fire and is shocked at how a friendly nation like US mistreated a diplomat over an issue which has been practiced by every nation. A quick idea about the wages American households in India or in other developing nations pay would give you a fair idea. Add the disbelief of mishandling the dignity of an "educated Indian Woman" , you have an honest call sheet.

Preet usually gets my respect especially when he sniffs all the inside trading cases but his name and his involvement has added to the eyeballs. I won't consider the US office so naive and not see the headlines which this partnership would create. So what was the main agenda behind all this?

If we go by latest bytes from US office , there is a shift in the tone and I see them back-paddling on this issue!

Time to give Vienna another call perhaps?

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