1984 Backlash...dissapointing..updated video pg 5 - Page 2

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mr.ass thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#11

Originally posted by: _Angie_

@ Vintu - That was quite a fair analysis of the events that took place and very well presented.. Sentiments usually cloud ones judgement and often lead to tragic consequences of enormous proportions, which is why we need to guard against making irresponsible statements like the one made here by this member-
This one statement fully justifies the Id the member chose for himself.



lol if i kept my name to OBJ what would you have said 😛

please! indira gandhi was a bloody dictator. india was poor and miserable because of that hitler. worhtless female. rajiv gandhi shouldn't have been killed, but she deserved to die, and so does sonia and rahul.

MODI JI KI JAI!
Vintage.Wine thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#12

Originally posted by: mr.ass



lol if i kept my name to OBJ what would you have said 😛

please! indira gandhi was a bloody dictator. india was poor and miserable because of that hitler. worhtless female. rajiv gandhi shouldn't have been killed, but she deserved to die, and so does sonia and rahul.

MODI JI KI JAI!


Aww...Chillax mon ...😆...The point of discussion was the bold move by then PM to storm the coward terrorists who made Akal Takht their hideout...Is the current government capable of initiating such a Politically incorrect action ? ..If the same people who are ruling right now were in power that time ...they woulda moved gingerly and treated the heavily armed militia as some Dandiya Raas party ...😆 ..And Khalistan would be the disastrous reality ...Now the latest incursions by the Chinese PLA are the greatest proof of their inability to take retaliatory actions...

Now look ..I ain't saying Indira Gandhi's career was immaculate ..but she made her bones displaying such unprecedented courage...And I would extol her for that ..

Also I agree that those two other Gandhis that you have mentioned are truly Lame and Inept people ..and Indians must make sure they are thrown outta power at the earliest ...

And that India miserable, India poor platitude ..it sounds so friggin stale ..I mean it has become a fashion on IF to make such statements these days ..😆...Now look ...I would firstly attribute most of the misery to the 150 years of constant looting by the Brits ..when they Divided and Ruled India with a fist of Iron ..

Vintu...😊






Frigate thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#13

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine


Aww...Chillax mon ...😆...The point of discussion was the bold move by then PM to storm the coward terrorists who made Akal Takht their hideout...Is the current government capable of initiating such a Politically incorrect action ? ..If the same people who are ruling right now were in power that time ...they woulda moved gingerly and treated the heavily armed militia as some Dandiya Raas party ...😆 ..And Khalistan would be the disastrous reality ...Now the latest incursions by the Chinese PLA are the greatest proof of their inability to take retaliatory actions...

Now look ..I ain't saying Indira Gandhi's career was immaculate ..but she made her bones displaying such unprecedented courage...And I would extol her for that ..

Also I agree that those two other Gandhis that you have mentioned are truly Lame and Inept people ..and Indians must make sure they are thrown outta power at the earliest ...

And that India miserable, India poor platitude ..it sounds so friggin stale ..I mean it has become a fashion on IF to make such statements these days ..😆...Now look ...I would firstly attribute most of the misery to the 150 years of constant looting by the Brits ..when they Divided and Ruled India with a fist of Iron ..

Vintu...😊







Agree that Indira was autocratic at times; esp. when she declared emergency, but she was a shrewd politician and knew how to have her way. She was just keeping the policies of "socialism" espoused by the"Gandhians" alive! To storm the Golden temple was indeed a gutsy move, but may be there was a better way? How hard is it to fight an enemy that has willingly drawn borders around it and is surrounded on all sides. I know that they had locked themselves in with rations to last several months, but eventually, they would have to come out for some necessity.

Your recounting of events that lead to Indira's assasination are excellent.

@BOLD: The Brits impoverished India by tapping into all of India's resources, but the moghuls who came before them had already broken the social fabric that held Indians together. In essence, the degeneration of India started in the 15th century and many "foreigners" have had a hand in the destruction of what could have been the most progressive society!
Vintage.Wine thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#14

Originally posted by: Frigate


Agree that Indira was autocratic at times; esp. when she declared emergency, but she was a shrewd politician and knew how to have her way. She was just keeping the policies of "socialism" espoused by the"Gandhians" alive! To storm the Golden temple was indeed a gutsy move, but may be there was a better way? How hard is it to fight an enemy that has willingly drawn borders around it and is surrounded on all sides. I know that they had locked themselves in with rations to last several months, but eventually, they would have to come out for some necessity.

Your recounting of events that lead to Indira's assasination are excellent.

@BOLD: The Brits impoverished India by tapping into all of India's resources, but the moghuls who came before them had already broken the social fabric that held Indians together. In essence, the degeneration of India started in the 15th century and many "foreigners" have had a hand in the destruction of what could have been the most progressive society!


Aww ...Thanks heaps ..Yeah I write sensible things too especially in May and in July ..😆

@ Bold: This is interesting ..But let me tell ya why it musta become necessary to besiege the premise. If you read up the fallacies on Khalistan.net website you ll know how Jernail Singh carried out his ruse. Starting off as a Anti Akali leader, whose only intention was to instill conscience into Sikh society, he inspired and enticed people into supporting his demand for a separate state.He also stated clearly that the day the army would attack the temple, the foundation of Khalistan would be lead...And by the summer of 1984 he had 100s of thousands of supporters ready to support him either pro actively or passively. Had the army bailed em up inside the temple the people outside woulda attacked the army. They did the same when the premise was surrounded. A mob of over 40,000 people confronted the army and engaged em in a fight. So the military action was inevitable in my view. And if the army had cut off their ration supplies, do you think the militia inside woulda remained silent ? Also such a delayed action woulda given em ample time to garner more outside support and even international intervention. <<<< See this ? ...The militants inside had huge stock of ( then ) contemporary armaments and amo ...And they were lead by a formal military general...Shahbeg Singh ...So I guess a quick and sudden action was warranted there.


@ Your @ Bold: ..<< 😆 ..True that ...And this is what those fanatics had forgotten. See the Akal Takth was created as a connotation of the Sikh resilience against the invasions by Ahmed Shad Abdali...And then came the brit to add more insult to the injury .. ..See the basic girder of the any society is secularism and peaceful co existence..A few try to shatter that by patronizing people of different communities and making em apprehend dangers that actual aren't ...😆 ..Like the present government in India is doing ...They are the ones who are spreading hatred and fear amongst people for their own benefit ..

Vintu...😛




enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#15

Originally posted by: sandy290393

I'm definitely not with you when you say Indira Gandhi made the best decision at the time. Walking in to any holy place armed and with an intent to kill is never ok. I understand that there's many sides to what happened around that time but had it been them hiding in a very holy and historical mandal for example there would not have been the same action taken. The timing of the event itself was really bad timing which suggests that the decision may have been made to instigate rather than prevent.


First on Blue Operation:

Before I get into the analysis, I want to state one thing.. Good,bad,ugly.. whatever.. it is a decision that will always be regretted...sometimes even if actions are meant for greater good, you can not be happy about them because there is nothing to justify or be happy about.. greater good comes at a greater loss..

If we are talking of decisions- What options did she have then?
1. Mediation: She tried mediation through Harkishen Singh Surjit, late Sardar Swaran Singh, Raghunandan Lal Bhatia and many others to get the matter resolved. Everyone involved has said that at one time almost an agreement was in sight but the same eluded them by a whisker.

2. Make militants politically weak by strengthening Akali leadership: Congress is at fault for allowing rise of radicalism.. but at the time of the operation, this option simply did not exist..and not to forget, at later stages everytime govt did try to work with Akalis, a fresh round of terrorist killings in Punjab would happen

3. Compromise: 😃.. i wonder!

Just before the operation, there was also the major threat of non-co-operation blocking food grain supply, water to the nation. There were looking at complete freedom..separation.. mass killings were happening..there was nothing remotely religious in his teachings.. and the changing laws about killings within the holy shrine..it was all of a sudden justified because they wanted war..terrorism was widespread..rural backdrop was its strength..

Glorification of the event later on by media and some party members was wrong...and yes to an extent analyst say compromise..they could have reached a compromise..but I again have my doubts given the moderates and what Bhindranwale was asking for.. this would not have yielded result..

Was it right for this group to move into the Gurudwara with all the arms when it did not have a religious sense to it?..

From IG's perspective, she is a politician.. why would she on purpose want to offend a significant section of the society????.. also, going by the quotes, she did not expect such a reaction to army's move of entering the Golden temple...after the event, when she was suggested to remove all sikh bodyguards from her troop.. she declined..

Additionally, a big flaw lies with the army.. their research was not complete.. they were unaware of the trenches, the weapons.. and their report / strategy did not expect the kind of deaths that ended up taking place..

Another issue people have, the time of this attacke .. why were journalists not involved..my understanding is simple.. its not an action where you want to create public hysteria.. you anyway know what is going to happen is not a good sight..

There are so many things.. but to sum it up, I ask you.. what option was there that could have resulted similar consequences- putting an end to rempant terrorism..?? Its easier for me to argue on specifics..


In my opinion, she is the only PM who had the guts to take a decision..some proved right some wrong over period of time..May it be guts to impose emergency, may it guts to fight 1971 war, may it be guts to order operating blue star all only showed her inner strength. However, corruption in politics also got wings under her rule only..


About instigating it and not preventing it...Yes, many analysts feel IG put Binderwala upto this..

I will not deny Congress has a role in supporting rise of radicalism.. and throughout her reign she has shown signs of a non compromising leader..

BUT, in this case atleast, i think it was required.

Be it hindus/mandal.. same thing would have opened... specially if you go by her character/personality sketch..




enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#16

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine


Hey ! ..But anyone who likes to read such history avidly might wanna raise their eyebrows over what you just said ...Was the incursion of a holy shrine by the anarchists a great move ..? ..Who moved heavy armaments to the sanctum first ? ...Who made a rapacious attempt to overturn the priest and take over the shrine ? People in power or the separatists? Wasn't a retaliatory action warranted ? ...What do you think ? ...Hm ..

Vintu ...


Sad, but yes those are precisely the points to ponder over.. What were the anarchists doing there.. the aims of their approaching non co-operation movement, the problems that did exist already in Punjab... @sandy, take the bigger picture..

And you would also find analysis on what should, should not be allowed within the golden temple and specifically their laws on arms inside a gurudwara..how it changes from no war to war situations
enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#17

Originally posted by: huneymonsta

I have just been reading a lot of articles from both sides and my opinion is that Bhai Jarnail Singh should not have been in the Golden Temple and more so Indira Ghandi should not attacked killing innocent people.


What I find hard to digest is what happened in Delhi- the anti Sikh riots. What a shameful time for India!!! Some 28 years on and still no justice for those families that lost loved ones.

I also read about the Black Cats operation and disgusting. I feel ashamed of the Indian government.

Where is the justice?!



First para.. yes.. they should not have been in the temple in the first place..

Post IG's death.. that was pure genocide.. and calling it a riot is a lie.. big lie..

Sikhs were targetted primarily but by Congress and their bhade ke gunde.. it wasn't a communcal riot.. It is appaling, disgraceful, disgusting, shameful, heinous crime ...

If i can be as extreme as this.. I would say, those big wigs from Congress should be burnt alive...

I was appalled at how tytler spoke to the Californian witness on Arnab Goswamy's show on this.. ( if any of you watched)...

Somehow, end of rang de basanti doesn't seem so bad now..

( If I am saying this, that just shows how disgusted I am )
enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#18

Originally posted by: Vintage.Wine


Aww ..Fairy nuff !! ...Now tell me do ya commend the act of Satwant and Biyant singh ? ..Were they martyrs in your view ? ..I guess the riots do happen everywhere as a ramification of such bold actions ..Its not unique to this case ..People exhibit the rancor in a violent way ..Its the psychology of the masses ...

Also Bhindarnwale was a known extremist ...And what do ya think the people in power shoulda done ? Shuold they have allowed him to make the temple the base of his terrorist activities ? In the name of taking refuge there ? ...All clayton's reasoning ... ..

They had to total em all right there and then after the offer to surrender and evacuate the shrine was turned down ...

Vintu ...😛



I couldn't have put it better.. thanks Vintu..
enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#19

Originally posted by: huneymonsta


I do not condone the killing of Indra Ghandi nor do I think Bhindrawale should have been in the temple either.

What I do think is disgraceful it what happened after wards. It was not a Hindu against Sikh (in fact most Hindu's helped the Sikh) it was the government against Sikhs.

Its appalling that justice has not been delivered. There are tons of evidence against people yet the government refuse to do anything.

@Court decision: Facepalm...😃.. Congress/ Corruptions' palm.. our face..

Rajiv Ghandi said something along the lines of when a great tree falls the ground shakes. This is a disgusting comment to make. The Sikhs that ultimately paid the price had nothing to do with the actions of a few others.

I would agree on one point with regards to bluestar, the glorification that happened later on was not in good taste and not required.. Mind you.. IG is recorded to have regretted this decision in spite of her belief for taking this decision.. that reflects sensitivity.. but what most of the others did was ridiculing..

In my view those that suffered need justice. Those that killed need to be punished. The religion they belong to shouldnt matter.

Religion, in itself is the biggest vice..
Religion has thrived for so long amongst humankind is because it is the surest, best, most effective way of garnering power..

Would open a separate topic there to elaborate what I mean.. do not misunderstand this as ignoring relevance of religion altogether..

enigmatic_zephy thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
#20

@ Pink: What ? Ghandi ? <<<< Are ya sure we both are reading the same history? ..😆

@ All Blue: Hahaha ..of course mon ... But if you ask me.. ' I'm ashamed of the government' sounds pretty trite. ...See if I were you I wouldnta been ashamed of the events that took place even before my birth even if they were truly shameful ( Which according to me ain't true in this case ) obviously cause I couldn'ta averted em unless I were some spirit who had such uncanny powers ..😆 ..And then citizens of almost every nation should be ashamed of their governments for one reason or the other. Um ..Germans ? For the Jew genocide ? ...Americans of course for nuking Japan's cities, killing civilians in unprecedented number ..Brits for well Do I even need to tell that ? ..😛...There are endless examples ...The whole world is a shameful place to be ..you see ...😆

Alright ..Now tell me this ..Have ya been reading all rhetorical stories about the events that took place during those days? ...Bhindranwale was a shrewd autocrat who proactively indulged in extremist activities. Who was responsible for quite a few killings that happened at that time. And innocent people ? Well if you know that the curfew was imposed before the operation to eliminate the terrorists who had holed up inside The Golden Temple had began ..And when the troops raided the hideout, they were immediately involved in a fiercest of the gun battles that was fought on that soil. How could innocent people have Light machine guns and Rocket launchers and tonnes of ammunition handy ? ..How could they plan their defense like a Pro ? ..Yeah ..Yeah ..Pro of course cause they were guided by a former military commander...Some 700 troops were killed ...which I guess ain't picnic ...Innocent, unarmed (etc ) people can't achieve such a feat ...😆 ...Is it possible for untrained, innocent people to have weapons and will nuff to battle the army out for 6 straight days ? ..Think of it ...

Now one should understand the terrorist's modus operandy here ...They often hole up inside temples, mosques, churches etc...to give a Anti Religion look to the affair.. ( When governments react that is ..) ...Innocent people outside don't understand this ..They often look at the sketchy picture that the supporters of the extremists paint to patronize em. ..and consider that the reality ...Those who had assembled inside the compound were Khalistan fanatics ..And had the government not stopped em ( Elimination btw was the only way left to do so..) there would be a separate Khalistan state ... ..Also one can't ignore the fact that despite of the curfew, a huge mob of Bhindranwale supporters flocked the place to battle the army. .Now the army was left with no choice but to retaliate ...

^^^ So IDK why you thought that the operation was disgusting ...
Now what happens after every such incidents is pretty classic ..a few, without thinking about the implications go onto assassinate prominent, public figures ..And they did the same ...They killed the PM , They killed a former Lieutenant General too ..Which caused the outrage amongst the people ...against those who provided sly support to the extremists ...This is the psychology of common people ..Now who is to be blamed for that ? The people who partook the riots ..Right ..But were the assassins not responsible for sparking the outrage ? ...<<< See that ? ..they were equally responsible for the events that occurred later on.Did they attain closure by killing off the PM who they thought was the perpetrator ? ..May be yeah ..But for the rest of the community, the situation only exacerbated ...

Also you must note that out of the six convicts, one was released ..and other five ..which include a politician too were deemed guilty. And this is cause the process of law doesn't work on sentiments ...Its pretty mechanical...The lack of evidence and the discrepancies in the statements by the witnesses lead to his release ..

@ All Bold: Of course you are right ...Justice must be delivered to the affected people and in a speedy way <<<< ..That I believe is one big, apparent flaw in the system ...But then " The Sikhs that ultimately paid the price had nothing to do with the actions of a few others. " << <<<< This one argument by you I believe is a gem ..and deserves attention ...as it speaks volumes (For itself ..) A few commit sins and the rest end up paying the price ...Its the vicious cycle of vengeance buddy ..which needs to end ...😊

That's all I had to say regarding a matter that in no way relates to me ...😆 ..I'm serious ...If I think more abut this ..I fear I might start to look like either Jernail Singh Bhindranwale ..or ..Um ...Indira Gandhi ? ...<< OMG !! ...😆

Vintu ...😛











You have explained it well.. thanks!.. Good I was not there to post replies..

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