Why did God create us? And ask us to worship him? - Page 5

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

labib asked us to presuppose.

in his own words: "why do you think He created us, and the rest of the universe?"

keeping that in mind, the 4th option states/asks that "if he hadn't created us, would he cease to exist?". the 5th option contradicts the presupposition by stating "he didn't create us, we created him".

Why would it? They are different options, for different people, with different mindsets. #5 is for atheists who do not believe in a God, but rather, believes that the notion and concept of God had been invented or created by human beings. #4 is for theists (or most probably deists) who believes that a God exists...but He isn't Omnipotent, and as such, He required human beings and the rest of the cosmos to exist in order for Him to keep existing as well.

Read my previous post where I clarified my stance to Ajnu and Googly.

if options are being given, the presupposition shouldn't be allowed. and vice-versa.

so, before plunging into a debate, i would ask labib

do you also want us to presuppose
a) that he created us and the rest of the universe?
b) that he "resides" in a different world?
c) that there is a purpose?
d) that he is powerful and supreme?
e) that the concepts of existence and non-existence apply to him?

Those are the ones you decide for yourself. I know, my poll options were limited, and while I could most certainly fill about another 5 options there, I still would not be able to put down all options (which can take an infinite form) there. As such, I noted down the ones that came into my head, and I considered important, that moment.

The poll options aren't important. Like WA or Sarina, write down what you believe to have happened, from all and every angles, rather than trying to say it all through voting.

Am I making even an iota of sense? Or should I actually go to sleep?

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

Pick one, sport.

This is getting... 🥱

I will go with the latter, since I am a believer (no matter how strange a believer I may be).
An atheist will go with the former one, as that is what fits his criteria.
Should have kept an option for agnostics too.

so labib, in a nutshell, you are asking us to discuss god and all that entails?!

1) if the topic starts us off by asking us to assume that there is a god, the question as to why create an universe is debatable. in that case, i asked you guys to put yourself in the "shoes" of god and tell me what you would do.

2) if the topic is asking us to argue from all possible sides, then that's what people have been doing since they first descended on the scene.

Originally posted by: Mister.K.

1) if the topic starts us off by asking us to assume that there is a god, the question as to why create an universe is debatable. in that case, i asked you guys to put yourself in the "shoes" of god and tell me what you would do.

It's not as if you are God; you are just as much a guy as any of us. As such, you 'guy' need to put yourself in the shoes of God as well, and not just us. 😛

I took my test, and told you I see myself and my world bursting down in contradictions and paradoxes.

2) if the topic is asking us to argue from all possible sides, then that's what people have been doing since they first descended on the scene.

Exactly. That's precisely what it should be. Not necessarily argue...but discuss it from every angles, every sides, every corners, every aspects.

Any serious problems here?

I will try this again, one more time.

The topic (unless you edit it later, which seems to happen quite often on this board for some reason or other, and I am not saying you are the one doing it) is this: "Why did God create us? And ask us to worship him?"
The inherent, implicit notion in that statement is that there is a God and he is asking us to worship him.

So, in essence, you are setting off a bunch of people in that direction, to seek answers to those questions.

At the same time, you are letting inside, a bunch of other people who are going to argue that there is no God.

Among the first batch of people, there could be some who doesn't want to go on that trip because they are non-believers; except since the topic tells them to assume as such, they have embarked on such a trip just for arguments' sake.

I am asking what of those people?

Secondly, I asked the question "what would you do if you are God". You can't answer my question with another question "what would you do?". Well, technically you can, but I will reserve my reply for a more opportune time.

The reason I asked that question was, if God is there and if he is not creating, then what is his purpose? Mind you, I am not asking what is our purpose, I am asking his.

^maybe he wants to challenge those who believe in a God who created, and a God who demands worship?

^^ Mister K, I think Labib initially intended this to be a discussion on the purpose of our creation. He clearly stated at the beginning that regardless of one's belief in God, assuming there is a God, why did he create us?

I think we should stick to that. Whether or not God exists is a topic we've beaten to death here in DM already. And if anyone disagrees, we have Believe's topic Seeking Certainty where the discussion on God's existence can be carried on.

And if "nonbelievers" don't want to embark on this trip for the sake of argument, there is no obligation to debate here in DM. ;)

Originally posted by: *Woh Ajnabee*

^^ Mister K, I think Labib initially intended this to be a discussion on the purpose of our creation. He clearly stated at the beginning that regardless of one's belief in God, assuming there is a God, why did he create us?

that he did. initially, like you said. which is why option #5 and some of his subsequent statements in favor of option #5 were being questioned.

+

googly's objection (rightfully so) was that the statement "He would cease to exist without our existence" and the statement "A God did not create us...we created Him." are close in content. reason being, if we created god (consequent of statement #5) and if we don't exist (consequent of option #4) then god would obviously cease to exist too. if god was something like hoover dam that we created then, may be, hoover dam will exist for some more time, even when we cease to exist. but god is a concept in our minds and therefore, he doesn't exist in anyone's mind if there are no more minds (of people).

on the other hand, if the hypothesis starts us off with a definite scenario (god being there, to hell with people) then we could debate all we want.

conclusion: keep one entity a constant; keep the rest as variables

Assuming God is there and asuming He created us, I would say He did it only to make us (our future generations) all Gods, one day. The travails and tribulations on the way, are there to make us learn the ropes the hard way.

In future,
* we will have "organic database chips" inside of us that pretty much make us omniscient
* we will have the power to create our own universes that make us omnipotent
* we will be able to conquer diseases and death and be immortal, and we will be able to time-travel at light speed as well as bend space-time by conquering wormholes, all of which will make us omnipresent
* we will be able to conquer pain; we will be able to alter our appearances at will.
* we will have perfect, fool-proof, time-tested law and order systems in place that work at peak efficiency, like clock-work, making us benevolent and just.

None of which will answer the question "but why?! what's the point?!"