Mahabharata Related Discussions - Page 6

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
I think that Ashwamedha was the ultimate yagna that one did, and Rajasuya was lower in the hierarchy.  I don't think that in Rama's yagna, the various kings were taxed or anything - that would have happened had it been a Rajasuya yagna.  But in the Dwapar yuga, looks like it was required to tax the other rulers, and in that case, the Pandavas didn't hesitate to do either.  They did the Rajasuya earlier, when they were rulers of Indraprastha and wanted to assert their supremacy, and the Ashwamedha later, when they wanted to atone for the sins Varaali mentioned.

Okay, here's another question that came to mind while going through the list of Kaurava Akshauni commanders:

Duryodhana, selecting from among them brave and intelligent warriors, made them the leaders of his troops. And placing an Akshauhini of troops under each of those best of men, viz., Kripa, Drona, Salya, Jayadratha, the king of the Sindhus, Sudakshina the ruler of the Kamvojas, Kritavarman, Drona's son (Aswatthaman), Karna, Bhurisravas, Sakuni, the son of Suvala, and the mighty Vahlika


Given that during the first 10 days, Karna was not a participant in the war, how was he listed as one of the commanders?  Or did Bheeshma command Karna's akshauni, just like Dhrishtadyumna was both the pradhan senapati as well as the commander of an akshauni?  Also, while Karna wasn't fighting, how come Bheeshma had no problems w/ his sons - Vrishasena, Chitrasena and others, as well as Karna's brothers - fighting under him?

I also thought it strange that a mediocre warrior like Shakuni was one of the akshauni commanders, rather than Bhagadatta, who gave Arjun a tough time on day 12, or Srutayudha, who on day 14, hurled a destructive mace @ Krishna which recoiled on him.  

Exit question: When Shalya became Karna's charioteer, who commanded his akshauni?  Or was it one of the 8 akshaunis that was wiped out on day 14 by Arjun, Satyaki & Bhima?
Edited by .Vrish. - 12 years ago
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
^^^^Very clear Vrish. Almost totally convinced. Ashwamedh was completely performer's responsibility to finance (and only those will challenge who understand that responsibility to continue and finish the sacrifice if at all victorious) so I think Kshaatradharma to accept the challenge is not that critical.

Regarding Karna, I think it is because he insulted his guru Parshuram (also Bhishma's guru) by being a party to Draupadi vastraharan. Bhishma had no problem with Karna's brothers and sons because they were neither party to it nor they were Parashuram's shishyas. And Duryodhan-Dushasan also were not the shishyas of Parashuram. But still the question 'whether Karna only was sitting idle for 10 days or his entire akshauhini under command was unused for 10 days?' remains.

Regarding Shakuni, one can only guess that he just used his relationship and it was Duryodhan who persuaded that employment/appointment by Bhishma. Bhagdatt was heading his independent elephant army so I guess he already had responsibility spot filled up.
Edited by ShivangBuch - 12 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
But that explanation begs several new questions of its own:
  • Drona too was a guru-bhaiya to Bheeshma, and he too did nothing about Draupadi's vastraharan.  And if it was so major, then he should not have agreed to be in an army that has Duryodhan, Dushashan or Shakuni fighting either.
  • I doubt that Karna's akshauni itself was idle.  The battles on the first 10 days have various references to Vrishasena fighting warriors like Draupadis sons, so obviously, Karna's family members were still fighing.  And if they were, so was his akshauni
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

But that explanation begs several new questions of its own:

  • Drona too was a guru-bhaiya to Bheeshma, and he too did nothing about Draupadi's vastraharan.  And if it was so major, then he should not have agreed to be in an army that has Duryodhan, Dushashan or Shakuni fighting either. Drona didn't actively take part in Draupadi's insult (just like Bhishma himself) and as I said, Duryodhan-Dushasan-Shakuni weren't disciples of Parashuram. So apparently Bhishma didn't have problem with their action in absolute sense but the fact that the action was inappropriate by his Guru's shishya. He could forgive anybody else for any action but not the guy spoiling the name and fame of his guru. P.S. Or it was just an excuse brought in front to avoid the war between two brothers as far as possible. 

  • I doubt that Karna's akshauni itself was idle.  The battles on the first 10 days have various references to Vrishasena fighting warriors like Draupadis sons, so obviously, Karna's family members were still fighing.  And if they were, so was his akshauni. But then who was the chief of that Akshauhini for those 10 days? And was Bhagdatt's counted in 11 Akshauhini (that was predominantly made up of elephants only rather than the popularly accepted ratio of different categories of fighters in 1 Akshauhini.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 12 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Incidentally, the arguments about the guru-bhaiya objection was there in BRC, but I've not seen it in the actual MB.  Nor did I see anything there about Bheeshma advising Karna to join the Pandavas, as shown in the serial.  The only thing I can imagine is that Bheeshma was doing what Duryodhan was accusing him of by trying to tip the scales in favor of the Pandavas.

About the other question of who commanded Karna's akshauni, I'd imagine that it was either Bheeshma for those first 10 days, or Vrishasena.  Although if it was the latter, he'd have had to be demoted to make way for his father.
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Incidentally, the arguments about the guru-bhaiya objection was there in BRC, but I've not seen it in the actual MB.  Nor did I see anything there about Bheeshma advising Karna to join the Pandavas, as shown in the serial.  The only thing I can imagine is that Bheeshma was doing what Duryodhan was accusing him of by trying to tip the scales in favor of the Pandavas.

In the serial, Bhishma doesn't explicitly advise Karna to join the Pandavas. He just says/asks implicitly that Karna should be supporting the righteous side as he is not bound by any oath. And Bhishma had problems with Karna is most probably mentioned in the text also that he had problems with him because he was Parashuram's shishya.

About the other question of who commanded Karna's akshauni, I'd imagine that it was either Bheeshma for those first 10 days, or Vrishasena.  Although if it was the latter, he'd have had to be demoted to make way for his father.
But then why Vrishsena's name is not mentioned in the list of commanders?

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Here is what Bheeshma said to Karna when the latter went to see him after the former was nailed by Arjun to the bed of arrows

Then Vrisha (Karna) endued with great glory, with voice choked in tears, approaching that hero lying with eyes closed, fell at his feet. And he said,--O chief of the Kurus, I am Radha's son, who while before thy eyes, was everywhere looked upon by thee with hate!--Hearing these words, the aged chief of the Kurus, the son of Ganga, whose eyes were covered with film slowly raising his eyelids, and causing the guards to be removed, and seeing the place deserted by all, embraced Karna with one arm, like a sire embracing his son, and said these words with great affection:--Come, come! Thou art an opponent of mine who always challengest comparison with me! If thou hadst not come to me, without doubt, it would not have been well with thee! Thou art Kunti's son, not Radha's! Nor is Adhiratha thy father! O thou of mighty arms, I heard all this about thee from Narada as also from Krishna-Dwaipayana! Without doubt, all this is true! I tell thee truly, O son, that I bear thee no malice! It was only for abating thy energy that I used to say such harsh words to thee! O thou of excellent vows without any reason thou speakest ill of all the Pandavas! Sinfully didst thou come into the world. It is for this that thy heart hath been such. Through pride, and owning also to thy companionship with the low, thy heart hateth even persons of merit! It is for this that I spoke such harsh words about thee in the Kuru camp! I know thy prowess in battle, which can with difficulty be borne on earth by foes! I know also thy regard for Brahmanas. thy courage, and thy great attachment to alms-giving! O thou that resemblest a very god, amongst men there is none like thee! For fear of intestine dissensions I always spoke harsh words about thee. In bowmanship, in aiming weapon, in lightness of hand and in strength of weapons, thou art equal to Phalguni himself, or the high-souled Krishna! O Karna, proceeding to the city of Kasi, alone with thy bow, thou hadst crushed the kings in battle for procuring a bride for the Kuru king! The mighty and invincible king Jarasandha also, ever boastful of his prowess in battle, could not become thy match in fight! Thou art devoted to Brahmanas; thou always fightest fairly! In energy and strength, thou art equal to a child of the celestials and certainly much superior to men. The wrath I cherished against thee is gone. Destiny is incapable of being avoided by exertion. O slayer of foes, the heroic sons of Pandu are thy uterine brothers! If thou wishest to do what is agreeable to me, unite with them, O thou of mighty arms! O son of Surya, let these hostilities end with me! Let all the kings of Earth be to-day freed from danger!--


'Karna said I know this, O thou of mighty arms! All this without doubt, is (as thou sayest)! As thou tellest me, O, Bhishma, I am Kunti's son, and not the son of a Suta! I was, however, abandoned by Kunti, and I have been reared by a Suta. Having (so long) enjoyed the wealth of Duryodhana, I dare not falsify it now. Like Vasudeva's son who is firmly resolved for the sake of the Pandavas, I also, O thou that makest profuse presents to Brahmanas, am prepared to cast away my possessions, my body itself, my children, and my wife, for Duryodhana's sake! Death from disease, O thou of Kuru's race, doth not become a Kshatriya! Relying upon Suyodhana I have always offended the Pandavas! This affairs is destined to take its course. It is incapable of being prevented. Who was there that would venture to overcome Destiny by exertion? Various omens indicating the destruction of the Earth. O grandsire, were noticed by thee and declared in the assembly. It is well known to me that the son of Pandu, and Vasudeva, are incapable of being conquered by other men. Even with them we venture to fight! I will vanquish the son of Pandu in battle! Even this is my firm resolve! I am not capable, of casting off this fierce animosity (that I cherish against the Pandavas)! With a cheerful heart, and keeping the duties of my order before my eye, I will contend against Dhananjaya. Firmly resolved that I am on battle, grant me thy permission, O hero! I will fight. Even this is my wish. It behoveth thee to forgive me also any harsh words that I may have at any time uttered against thee or any act that I may have done against thee from anger or inconsiderateness!--"

"'Karna said I know this, O thou of mighty arms! All this without doubt, is (as thou sayest)! As thou tellest me, O, Bhishma, I am Kunti's son, and not the son of a Suta! I was, however, abandoned by Kunti, and I have been reared by a Suta. Having (so long) enjoyed the wealth of Duryodhana, I dare not falsify it now. Like Vasudeva's son who is firmly resolved for the sake of the Pandavas, I also, O thou that makest profuse presents to Brahmanas, am prepared to cast away my possessions, my body itself, my children, and my wife, for Duryodhana's sake! Death from disease, O thou of Kuru's race, doth not become a Kshatriya! Relying upon Suyodhana I have always offended the Pandavas! This affairs is destined to take its course. It is incapable of being prevented. Who was there that would venture to overcome Destiny by exertion? Various omens indicating the destruction of the Earth. O grandsire, were noticed by thee 

"'Bhishma said,--If, indeed, thou art unable to cast off this fierce animosity, I permit thee, O Karna! Fight, moved by the desire of heaven! Without anger and without vindictiveness, serve thou the king according to thy power and according to thy courage and observant of the conduct of the righteous! Have then my permission, O Karna! Obtain thou that which thou seekest! Through Dhananjaya thou wilt obtain all those regions (hereafter) which are capable of 

Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Given the recent TB news about Sachin Verma joining a new show, I'm distinctly getting the idea that there are no plans to show the Mahabharata, but to just show Krishna's stories - largely invented ones.

From mythological to a cop thriller, the actor makes the switch...  15


If that's the case, I actually welcome it, since the serial has deteriorated so badly that I'm all for Imagine canning it whenever it feels like.
Edited by .Vrish. - 12 years ago
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

Here is what Bheeshma said to Karna when the latter went to see him after the former was nailed by Arjun to the bed of arrows


And here is what Bhishma said why he didn't want Karna to fight (The reason was not Parshuram's shishya to be part of Draupadi's Vastraharan suggestion - I am sorry where did I read apart from the serial I don't remember now) but serial is right as much as the word used 'ASABHYA' - "Mere guru ka koi shishya asabhya nahi ho sakta" and the dialog "Mere aur Angraaj ke bich matbhed bahut badh gaye hain". He was just fed up of Karna's arguing and rough and proud attitude against him and was feeling disrespect every now and then. I can very easily visualize Mukesh Khanna's characterization and acting over here.



There is another understanding on which I may willingly become the commander of thy forces. It behoveth thee to listen to that. O lord of earth, either Karna should fight first, or I will fight first. The Suta's son always boasts of his prowess in battle, comparing it with mine.'

"Karna said, 'As long as Ganga's son liveth, O king, I shall never fight. After Bhishma is slain, I shall fight with the wielder of Gandiva.'

Edited by ShivangBuch - 12 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
I think that had Bheeshma offered that, Duryodhan would have taken him up on that offer and made Karna the commander in chief of his forces, and let Bheeshma sit it out.  As it is, Duryodhan always had doubts about the loyalties of Bheeshma, Drona & Kripa.