Mahabharata Related Discussions - Page 5

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Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#41
The geography that is outlined above is really strange. I mean, who took on Jayadrath - Nakul, or Sahadev? If Bhima went south, how did Ayodhya fall under his coverage? And how did Bhima get to take on Anga, while Arjun got Pragjyotisha? It would be a very curious map if one had to draw it and split it b/w these 4.

Also, even if Nakul went to invite them, Duryodhan still had the prerogative of persuading Dhritarashtra to reject the invitation, and compete w/ Yudhisthir for the title, and he'd have had a legitimate reason to go to war. And on Karna, even if he was pitted against Bhima, w/ his kavacha & kundala, he'd have defeated & killed Bhima then, since @ the time, none of the events in Udyog parva had affected him - he was not guilty of insulting Draupadi, he had not been requested for his kavacha/kundala, and also, Kunti hadn't approached him begging him to spare her sons. So even that aspect is really strange, unless Karna was really a mediocre warrior only given to bragging.
Aradhana87 thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#42
@Vrish..I don't have the answer on your question but I can speculate ofcourse.
Bheeshma would not allow it because he does not want a fight between Pandav and Kaurav. I cannot quote a part from the epic but as far as I know he never wanted a fight between Pandav and Kaurav. I think he hoped that if Indraprasth is build than both "sides"will be calmed down or try to figure out a way to deal with eachother.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#43
It's not a bad argument, but it would seem that Duryodhan would have had a stronger case for going to war then - that he wanted Hastinapur, rather than Indraprastha, to be the supreme power on earth, and if Bheeshma & others were forced to support him in the war later, it would have been even more difficult for them to decline to support him here.
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#44

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

The geography that is outlined above is really strange. I mean, who took on Jayadrath - Nakul, or Sahadev? If Bhima went south, how did Ayodhya fall under his coverage? And how did Bhima get to take on Anga, while Arjun got Pragjyotisha? It would be a very curious map if one had to draw it and split it b/w these 4.


Also, even if Nakul went to invite them, Duryodhan still had the prerogative of persuading Dhritarashtra to reject the invitation, and compete w/ Yudhisthir for the title, and he'd have had a legitimate reason to go to war. And on Karna, even if he was pitted against Bhima, w/ his kavacha & kundala, he'd have defeated & killed Bhima then, since @ the time, none of the events in Udyog parva had affected him - he was not guilty of insulting Draupadi, he had not been requested for his kavacha/kundala, and also, Kunti hadn't approached him begging him to spare her sons. So even that aspect is really strange, unless Karna was really a mediocre warrior only given to bragging.


It is like what I have already drawn in my previous post Vrish. I once again try to show it. Forget Hastinapur for the time being. There is no reference of Sindhu/Jayadrath or Gandhar I am able to find specifically right now. One can say that Pandavas considered themselves and Hastinapur one only and avoided any kind of challenge. Inviting them was merely a formality and implied belief that Bhishma and Dhrit being their relatives will be pleased and proud with Yudhishthir's campaign and supremacy (just like Krishna, Shalya and Drupad did).

Consider yourself in Indraprastha. Now leaving Hastinapur and Panchal aside, draw a horizontal line crossing UP state and then turn your line towards South (diagonally) drawing it on Nepal South border, then Bhutan-Sikkim South border (North of Darjiling - India's national border) and then turn it further Southwards vertically on the right side of Bangladesh border but left of Tripura-Meghalay. All the territories above that line and on the right side of that line [Uttaranchal, Kashmir, Nepal, Himalayas, Tibet, China, North-east states of India (East of West Bengal), South-east Asia (Burma, Malaysia, Singapore - KMG actually mentions the word 'Singhpur' over there 😃 describing about geographical possible locations of Arjun's conquest)] were of Arjun. Bheem went to the East but below that Nepal line drawn and only upto Angdesh-Bangdesh (Central East India but not Asia). Battle with Karna is very short and mentioned just in one line so I don't know how serious and fierce it was. And Kavach-Kundal I guess were such that nobody could kill Karna until they were on (not that nobody could defeat him in any dual). And such battles of supremacy establishment for/with a sacrifice (If someone could actually manage or carry it out systematically) I suppose were considered very respectfully and religiously that I haven't found any killing in that conquest (That's why probably Jarasandh was swept out of the way before that battle for supremacy). I don't think any king could kill Pandavas or Pandavas could kill any king in the process (I think man on conquest had to be prepared for his death while fighting against Asura or Rakshas not believing any vedic rituals or norms or tradition but neither Karna nor Bheem would have done that with either of them like they were prepared to do at the time of Kurukshetra.). One could only defeat (and impose tax) or surrender (and give gifts) as per an implicit or explicit code of conduct.

Now draw another line below Indraprasth (Vertically originating from Indraprastha) on the South border of UP and cutting MP from the half covering Northern part of Chhattisgadh and becoming horizontal right on the border of WB and Orissa (Kalinga). Below that line was the area of Sahdev. On the left, draw a diognal line on the border of Rajasthan-MP and draw it upto Kachchha cutting Gujarat into half and draw it upto Dwarika such that only Dwarika is covered above that line. Rest of the Saurashtra will be in the area of Sahdev. But Dwarika, Kachchha and Pakistan and all middle east countries will come in territory of Nakul (All Mlechchhas and Yavans). Entire South India and Srilanka was of Sahdev. That's the geographical map.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 13 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#45
Okay, that map seems to describe this better!

This explanation is convincing - if anyone adhering to Shastras had to accept any non-hostile invitations, that may have bound Duryodhan. But if Karna was defeated by Bhima, he'd have been taunted by others not only for losing to Arjun, but also for losing to Bhima. But even then, if Yudhisthir was doing it on behalf of Indraprastha AND Hastinapur, then Dhritarashtra would have been the acknowledged emperor, not him.

However, the preclusion of killing seems unlikely. In the Ramayan, if you recall, when Rama thought of performing a Rajasuya yagna, Bharata appealed to him against it, on the grounds that it would turn friends into enemies, as they'd be duty bound to wage war against him, and would inevitably die, and the earth would be rid of kshatriyas, which would be undesirable. Which was why Rama accepted Lakshman's alternative of doing the Ashwamedha yagna.

So, in the above case, almost all rulers would have been duty-bound to fight the Pandavas, including people who later became their allies, such as Virata. So in such a case, Karna would have had an opportunity for a full blown war, and what's more, either he, if not Duryodhan, would have had the opportunity to gather every kingdom on earth and wage war on the Pandavas.

One could theoretically argue that Krishna was capable of fighting for the Pandavas and turning the tables for them, but given how Krishna had Bhima fight Jarasandha in a duel, rather than go to a military war w/ him, it's doubtful that that would have been a reason preventing those hostile to the Pandavas from going to war w/ them.
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#46
I think that your statement is credible as well that the norms of a Rajasuya and Ashwamedha yagna changed b/w the Treta & Dwapar Yugas. In the former, a Rajasuya yagna necessarily implied an initiation of hostilities by the ruler undertaking such a campaign, which is why Bharat was against it. In the latter, a Rajasuya yagna probably gave kingdoms the graceful alternative of allying w/ the ruler seeking the sacrifice, which meant that not only would Krishna, Shalya, Drupada et al have accepted it, but even unrelated kingdoms, like Chedi, Matsya, Srinjaya, Kekaya, et al would have taken that up.

In case of the Ashwamedha yagna too, I think that the ruler undertaking this sacrifice had the option of selecting his allies, and exempting family members from subservient roles. In Rama's yagna, Shatrughan, in spite of being the ruler of independent Mathura, was a co-host. (Incidentally, as I had argued in the past in the Ramayan forum, Shatrughan couldn't have accompanied that horse, since he was an independent ruler, and as per Valmiki, it was Lakshman, who accompanied the horse and was unchallenged throughout, and no, there was no battle w/ Luv or Kush) as were Janaka and Kushadvaj, as well as Yudhajit of Kekaya.

But in Yudhisthir's Ashwamedha Yagna, it seems that that was not an option for rulers. Otherwise, Babruvahana should have been invited as an honorary guest or co-host b4 the horse entered his territory. In fact, he was only too happy to welcome Arjun and accept Yudhisthir's overlordship, but Arjun's expressions of disgust @ his behavior forced him to do battle. Which is really strange, b'cos while Babruvahana was recognized as belonging to his mom's maayka instead of sasural, he could still have been recognized as a relative of the Pandavas and accordingly honored. Yeah, that did happen after his victory, but aside from the pre-destined curse of the Vasus, this confrontation seemed needless.

Another thing - I recall reading that if an Ashwamedha Yagna was successfully stopped, then it was the duty of the ruler who succeeded in stopping it to undertake the yagna himself. In which context, the stories of K-L successfully stopping the horse look ridiculous, and as far as Babruvahana goes, it would seem that he should have then taken up the yagna, and Yudhisthir and others should have recognized his overlordship. Except that Babruvahana wasn't known to have had any heroic sons or brothers or generals who could have successfully accompanied the horse.

But back to the discussion on the Kaurava challenge, you are right that Yudhisthir wouldn't have challenged Dhritarashtra, but had Dhritarashtra challenged Yudhisthir, then what? I doubt that the Pandavas would have had the option to back out w/o a loss of face, and even if they did, Karna could still have allied w/ some other enemy kingdoms and trounced them. I do think your observations about his prowess as a warrior is interesting, and I do agree that he was very overrated as a warrior. But that's another discussion, and probably the next thing we'll get to after this.
varaali thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#47
From what I understand, the Aswamedha yagna undertaken (in Yudhishthira's case) was more an exercise to wash away the 'sins' accrued because of killing brothers / uncles / gurus/ grandsires. The 'sins' could be washed away by
1) rich donations to brahmans
2) Oblations to agni, accompanied by the resonance of vedic chants
3) Vows required to be observed by the performer of yagna .

In other Ashwamedha Yagnas, the purpose of the military conquest that usually accompanied such kind of sacrifice, was to collect massive amounts of weath which a yagna of this scale would require. This could be done only by defeating other kings and extracting a heavy tribute from them. Also, the victorious king would have less scruples about taxing the subjects of another kingdom.

In Yudhishthira's case, the military campaign was a mere formality since the Pandavs had established their supremacy and the surviving kings were exhausted after the War. Yudhishthira especially advised Arjuna to avoid bloodshed wherever possible and spare the minor rulers, if any. When Arjuna enters the Sindhu kingdom, his dialogue with Dussala is very poignant and emotional and anyway, most rulers (excepting a few) only put up a token resistance.

In case of Rajasuya yagna, I think Bhishma would have only been happy to see the Pandava's progress. Whether i was Duryodhan or Yudhishthira, both of them were Kuru vanshis. The key point here is ,Yudhishthira did not consider himself separated from Hastinapur. Had he begun imposing terms on Hastinapur, maybe Bhishma's ire would have been aroused. But so long Yudhishthira gave Hastinapur the respect its throne demanded, Bhishma would have been happy to keep quiet.

That's why Duryodhn and his uncle felt the only way to depreive them of their kingom was by deceit.




Edited by varaali - 13 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#48
In the case of Rama's Ashwamedha Yagna, one of the reasons, though probably not the main reason, was to atone for Brahmhatya, which was incurred by the killing of Ravan. In that too, Lakshman got no resistance in all the kingdoms he visited, since a humiliation of the rulers wasn't involved. Arjun got more resistance, not just from Babruvahana (which he himself provoked) but also from Meghasandhi of Magadha, as well as Shakuni's successors in Gandhara. In Sindhu, Duhshala's son committed suicide rather than face Arjun, since he'd probably have wanted to avenge his father, but knew that he'd be defeated w/o getting killed had he tried.

Also, during Arjun's campaign, some Yadavas did capture his horse, and Ugrasena & Vasudev had to intervene to get them to release it, since Arjun obviously didn't want to start a war against Dwarka.
ShivangBuch thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#49
Agreed with Varaali's post in almost all points. What was the dialog between Dushala and Arjun? And the tributes paid to victorious king will eventually lead to taxing the other kingdom's subjects only! What's the difference?

And yes Vrish. Exactly that is our point. Co-Hosts. Just like Ram and Shatrughna/Janak were co-hosts, Yudhishir gave Dhritarashtra, Krishna, Shalya and Drupad the honour of Co-hosts.

So what's the conclusion? Was Rajsuya yagna conquest challenge more hostile than Ashwamegh (As in case of discussion between Ram-Bharat-Lakshman) in Dwapar also like Treta? Was surrendering to Yudhishthir/Ram without fighting or without fighting till death against Kshaatradharma? Why was that challenge not applicable to co-hosts when co-hosts also were accepting supremacy of an independent kingdom (even if relative) despite being Kshatriya themselves? Shaastras/Vedas are to be interpreted literally here? What's its exact essence as our conclusion of topic wrt to the duty of Kshatriya of accepting challenge?

Edited by ShivangBuch - 13 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
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Posted: 13 years ago
#50
I think that Ashwamedha was the ultimate yagna that one did, and Rajasuya was lower in the hierarchy. I don't think that in Rama's yagna, the various kings were taxed or anything - that would have happened had it been a Rajasuya yagna. But in the Dwapar yuga, looks like it was required to tax the other rulers, and in that case, the Pandavas didn't hesitate to do either. They did the Rajasuya earlier, when they were rulers of Indraprastha and wanted to assert their supremacy, and the Ashwamedha later, when they wanted to atone for the sins Varaali mentioned.

Okay, here's another question that came to mind while going through the list of Kaurava Akshauni commanders:

Duryodhana, selecting from among them brave and intelligent warriors, made them the leaders of his troops. And placing an Akshauhini of troops under each of those best of men, viz., Kripa, Drona, Salya, Jayadratha, the king of the Sindhus, Sudakshina the ruler of the Kamvojas, Kritavarman, Drona's son (Aswatthaman), Karna, Bhurisravas, Sakuni, the son of Suvala, and the mighty Vahlika


Given that during the first 10 days, Karna was not a participant in the war, how was he listed as one of the commanders? Or did Bheeshma command Karna's akshauni, just like Dhrishtadyumna was both the pradhan senapati as well as the commander of an akshauni? Also, while Karna wasn't fighting, how come Bheeshma had no problems w/ his sons - Vrishasena, Chitrasena and others, as well as Karna's brothers - fighting under him?

I also thought it strange that a mediocre warrior like Shakuni was one of the akshauni commanders, rather than Bhagadatta, who gave Arjun a tough time on day 12, or Srutayudha, who on day 14, hurled a destructive mace @ Krishna which recoiled on him.

Exit question: When Shalya became Karna's charioteer, who commanded his akshauni? Or was it one of the 8 akshaunis that was wiped out on day 14 by Arjun, Satyaki & Bhima?
Edited by .Vrish. - 13 years ago

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