OP Nayyar...Loss of the Veteran composer - Page 10

Originally posted by: chatbuster

we will find sparks of brilliance and creativity in Steve Jobs when he was taking a course in calligraphy of all things in a C-grade university. but TODAY! would we have seen that brilliance then when he was actually taking that course. and of course, also in bill gates when he dropped out of harvard. but anything that could have presaged wat later happened?

and in another field, when we look at past history of stock prices, we will often find "turns" that were so obvious, should have been obvious. but in hindsight. 20/20 vision.

are we suffering from that delusion with regards to Asha? when we claim to "find" the explosive talent that she had?

should've, cld've etc. all else is historical interpretation- fact is OPN did have a significant impact on Asha's career.

hope this dispels certain other notions we might have with respect to being able to "find talent waiting to explode". again, to claim we saw certain brilliance in her younger singing days is no different from monday morning quarterbacking. will be happy to further elaborate on this point as well.

unless someone can prove they are such good talent scouts, the credit for finding asha then goes to opn, all the contrary talk notwithstanding.

Originally posted by: chatbuster

the pt is simply this- a lot of asha's best work was with opn. since u chose to say that she went on to achieve greatness without opn, i felt compelled to point out that in terms of music her achievements are perhaps greatest when she was with opn. i am using the same orthodoxy that has been displayed elsewhere in making that stmt. a lot of her latter day success was mkting, or is it not so?

and i am not the one who's in the habit of condemning folks in any case. am just trying to see the consistency between different impressions created in diff places. am all for asha, but wanted to know where you were coming from, that's all.

and yes, thanks for the recommendation. i do have that collection and i have heard it. 😛

1957 was Asha's breakthrough year when O.P. Nayyar used Asha to sing the heroine's songs in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and Naya Daur. The same year S.D. Burman had his rift with Lata. And though Geeta Dutt could have been his next choice after Lata since she was already a mature singer while Asha was still raw, Geeta's troubled marriage did not make her easily available for rehearsals. Consequently S.D. Burman chose to groom Asha along with O.P. Nayyar rather than wait for Geeta.

OPN gave Asha her first break and from then on SDB and RDB took Asha to greater and greater heights. SDB and RDB have made fantastic songs with Asha (Lajwanti, Sujata, Sahab Bibi Ghulam, Teesri Manzil, Caravan, Jawani Diwani and so on)

I think the marketing part you are talking about refers to the repackaging/remixing of old songs (which I don't know much about).

Are you saying that the songs she sang for RDB in the seventies, eighties and nineties are successful because of marketing? Those songs became successful in the same manner as the earlier songs of OPN or SDB, via radio, big movie production banners, glamorous actresses and so on.

Originally posted by: punjini

1957 was Asha's breakthrough year when O.P. Nayyar used Asha to sing the heroine's songs in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and Naya Daur. The same year S.D. Burman had his rift with Lata. And though Geeta Dutt could have been his next choice after Lata since she was already a mature singer while Asha was still raw, Geeta's troubled marriage did not make her easily available for rehearsals. Consequently S.D. Burman chose to groom Asha along with O.P. Nayyar rather than wait for Geeta.

OPN gave Asha her first break and from then on SDB and RDB took Asha to greater and greater heights. SDB and RDB have made fantastic songs with Asha (Lajwanti, Sujata, Sahab Bibi Ghulam, Teesri Manzil, Caravan, Jawani Diwani and so on)

I think the marketing part you are talking about refers to the repackaging/remixing of old songs (which I don't know much about).

Are you saying that the songs she sang for RDB in the seventies, eighties and nineties are successful because of marketing? Those songs became successful in the same manner as the earlier songs of OPN or SDB, via radio, big movie production banners, glamorous actresses and so on.

no what i am saying is that her songs with OPN were more traditional in an orthodox sense than the ones with RDB. i think jawaani diwaani and caravan are pretty mundane but just my opinion.

in any case, we usually give credit to the first person who's given us the breaks. i am not sure SDB ever achieved the same level of commercial success as did OPN (not that he wasnt great), so even if she had some good songs with SDB, she might not have made the impact to carry her on into successive eras.

but this now is historical quarterbacking on my part. what we do know is that opn gave her the first/ best break, and at least for some of us her best music was with opn (exceptions with rdb/ sdb notwithstanding).

i did not see the need to undermine OPN in terms of his music. and it left me with questions. Was our hatred towards him so great that it clouded our judgment of his genius as a MD? was our contempt so enormous that we intentionally or subconsciously overlooked the big part he played in shaping Asha the singer?

Originally posted by: punjini

SDB and RDB have made fantastic songs with Asha (Lajwanti, Sujata, Sahab Bibi Ghulam, Teesri Manzil, Caravan, Jawani Diwani and so on)

Saahib Biwi aur Ghulam - was it SDB/RDB?

Certainly give credit to OPN for grooming Asha initially and giving her first break (though SDB started working with her in exactly the same year)but my point is that OPN also equally benefitted from the partnership. It worked both ways, that is you could say Asha was also responsible for establishing OP among the list of music greats. And I don't think any other singer would have fitted that slot (my opinion).

I have said before and say it again. Let's separate OPN the composer and OPN the man. For his creative side he gets bouquets from me and for his sexist/arrogant attitude, he gets my brickbats. Is it so difficult for some folks to understand? (Using your language) 😉

And why is it being overlooked that I referred to OPN as a genius again and again? I don't undermine OPN's music at all and the fact that I find his attitude sickening does not stop me from listening to his music.

But I will not hold him solely responsible for Asha's success when we have such gems composed by SDB and RDB for Asha (some of my favourites include "bhavara bada naadan hai", "ab ke baras bhejo", "kaali ghata chhaye" and there are many many more).

Originally posted by: juggyE

Saahib Biwi aur Ghulam - was it SDB/RDB?

Sorry, I stand corrected. It was Hemant Kumar!

So whats the discussion here...

- OP Nayyar was not a good music director?
- Suman Kalyanpur is a better singer than Asha?
- OP Nayyar/Asha vs SD Burman/Asha?
- MRTP of the Mangeshkar sisters?

- From all I've heard/read, OP Nayyar was an egostical person but it doesn't take away an iota of what he achieved as a MD.
- Suman K was a very very good singer but I dont think anyone has actually compared her to Asha. The point some people are trying to make here (from what I could gather) is that SumanK, SudhaM, MubarakB, ChandraniM, VaniJ could have given us a lot more if not for the monopoly of the Mangeshkar sisters. SumanK's best work came when Mohd Rafi and Lata didn't sing with each other for almost a decade (royalty issue) and she was paired with Rafi. After they made up, Suman Kulyanpur again went into oblivion 😭

Of course, there have been a lot of rumors regarding OP-Lata and then, the Mangeshkar sisters monopoly. Believe what you want to, ignore the rest...

- O.P. Nayyar who turned to Asha Bhosle in the 60's, admits in his most recent interview that "I am to blame myself in the position I am today. My only regret in life is that I didn't stick to Geeta dutt voice, and ignored her for Asha Bhosle. As I was involved very emotionally with Asha Bhosle at that time, and Asha Bhosle didn't wanted me to compose songs for any other female singer, this almost stopped me to use any other female voice. Asha Bhosle says that my compositions were very intricate and complex to sing, and me(Asha) and Mohd Rafi can only give 80% to O.P.Nayyar songs. I (Nayyar) think she is lying, she and Mohd Rafi could only give 40% to my music. The only singers who can give 100% and did full justice to my songs were Geeta Dutt and Shamshad Begum". (Source:- rediff.com) (I think O.P. Nayyar along with Kedar Sharma and are the only ones to admit to Lata and Asha monopoly in the Film Industry. Maybe there are many other incidents too where they stopped music directors to use other female voices, as many singers including Suman Kulyanpur, Vani Jairam and Mubarak Begum blamed Lata and Asha for that.
All of them can't be lying, what you people think...

- The song "Piya Aan na sakhie more nainan mein" was to be originally sung by Lata Mangeshkar. As this was O.P Nayyar first movie (Aasmaan, 1951), Lata refused to sing for new music director and the song was recorded in Rajkumari's voice in a hurry. O.P. Nayyar had lots of self-respect and ego, and he sweared to himelf, that he will be popular without using Lata voice even once, and he proved it! Lata in her recent interview says diplomatically, "I fell sick and therefore I wasn't able to go, and the recording was cancelled". The other songs of Aasmaan were sung by Shamshad Begum and Geeta Dutt and C.H. Atma.
Who knows what the truth is...

- S.D.Burman also had trouble with Lata, starting from the film Sitaron se aage, and didn't used her voice for almost seven years. Of course, as Punjini ji mentioned, this gave a further boost to Asha's career.

- Lata ji (apparently) also had a problem with Kidar Sharma ji - In an interview (magazine Shama), the song "kabhi tanhaiyon mai yun hamari yaad aaye gi" was to be originally sung by Lata. Everything including rehearsal etc was complete. But Lata wanted Kidar Sharma to pay her driver too. When he refused to pay, Lata said "mera gala kharab hai, i can't sing". Kidar became very furious (M/D Snehal Bhatkar told him to just pay Lata's driver and get over it) and asked someone to call Mubarak Begum and told Lata "yeh dhandli yahan nahin chaley gi".
Mubarak Begum (And this tells us something about her circumstances in those days) came to record this song, the first thing she asked was food. After eating, the song was finally recorded and became her most famous song. Later, Kidar Sharma never used Lata's voice for any of his later films.

Again, no idea if that's true...

Lastly...
Jawani Diwani/Caravan might have been a random example but can in no way (IMHO) be compared to Ek Musafir Ek Hasina/Kashmir Ki Kali...

Some of Asha's songs for SDB are classics though (Sujata/Bandini)...

Originally posted by: punjini

Certainly give credit to OPN for grooming Asha initially and giving her first break (though SDB started working with her in exactly the same year)but my point is that OPN also equally benefitted from the partnership. It worked both ways, that is you could say Asha was also responsible for establishing OP among the list of music greats. And I don't think any other singer would have fitted that slot (my opinion).

I have said before and say it again. Let's separate OPN the composer and OPN the man. For his creative side he gets bouquets from me and for his sexist/arrogant attitude, he gets my brickbats. Is it so difficult for some folks to understand? (Using your language) 😉

And why is it being overlooked that I referred to OPN as a genius again and again? I don't undermine OPN's music at all and the fact that I find his attitude sickening does not stop me from listening to his music.

But I will not hold him solely responsible for Asha's success when we have such gems composed by SDB and RDB for Asha (some of my favourites include "bhavara bada naadan hai", "ab ke baras bhejo", "kaali ghata chhaye" and there are many many more).

in terms of how OPN contributed in Asha's case, consider this. at a certain level, most people are bunched very closely in terms of talent. it then all comes down to who gets what breaks. it's true of the students who graduate from elite colleges- they are all very capable of doing the fast-track jobs equally well but only some get picked, often for reasons unconnected to competence. bring in almost anyone and they'll do the job as well. somewhat naive to think that there is so much difference between people. sure, SDB might have signed her on at some point, but that's like getting on a slower track career. after all, SDB's own career graph was not always rocking relative to other MDs.

and this example of students is not very far from context- Asha was one of several candidates and OPN was an institution who picked her. if nothing else, he was a great talent scout. ultimately, we can always argue how every MD has benefitted from other folks. i have not seen us make those fine distinctions earlier.

somewhere previously i had opined that SPB was not the greatest, aur woh bardasht nahee hua. why not? if we can bring in implicit contributions from other folks to undermine someone like OPN (of course while occasionally calling him a genius), and can be fairly vocal in denouncing aspects of his personality that dont relate to music, what was all that SPB hue-and-cry about?

First of all, are you talking about SDB or SPB? SD Burman or SP Balasubramaniam?

Are you saying that you thought that SDB was not the greatest? Did anyone slam you for saying that he was not your favourite? Did I? Are you referring to the thread where Qwerty said that North Indian MDs and singers have done more than other regions for Hindi film music? I think I said what I had to on that thread.

I don't think a talent scout can hone just about anybody. I don't agree that you can mould just anyone, that's my belief. In terms of art and music, all are not born equal. But yes, tastes are subjective.

So OPN was an institution and SDB was not? OPN had a rocking career and SDB didn't? Sorry, you haven't got your facts right.

If praise for Asha's individual capacity and SDB's brilliance sounds like undermining of OPN's work to you, then I can't help in this matter.