Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 11

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Thanks a lot for the information Ananya.

I knew Manikandan was born to kill Mahishi but never knew about the curse.

Here's the story I have read.

Since Manikandan was the son of Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, he was considered an avtaar of both the Gods.

There was a king named Rajashekara, who had not children. He was the king of Pantala. Once, while passing by the banks of Pampa, he found a beautiful baby boy. As the king was looking at the baby, a sage told him to take him up and raise him as his own son. The sage also said that when the boy becomes 12 years old, the king will come to know who he really is. Accordingly, the king and his queen raised to boy as their own son. Their mininster was not happy as he was planning to become the king after the present one. But his plans were foiled due to that little boy.

The king sent the boy to Gurukul for his education. His teacher knew who he was. When Manikanda asked what will be the Gurudakshina, his teacher said, "I know that Shiva and Vishnu reside in you. I have a son who is not able to speak. It is enough if you can make him speak."

Manikanda placed the Vilva and Tulsi leaves in a cup of milk. He put some sacred ash into the cup after chanting a mantra. He made the boy (his Guru's son) drink it. The boy was able to speak after drinking it. The first words he uttered was " Ayya! Appa! Ayyappa!" Hence, Manikandan was also known as Ayyappa after this incident.

The king planned to crown Manikandan as the king.

After some years, a son was born to the queen whom they named Rajarajan. The king and the queen brought up both the boys with equal love. The minister who was waiting for an opportunity to get rid of Manikandan, started poisoning the queen's mind. He made her think that her own son must be the king and not Manikandan who was an orphan in the woods.

She feigned illness according to the minister's plans. The king was very much worried about his wife's illness. No one could find out the reason for the queen's ailment. The minister brought a fake medicant who said that the illness can only be cured with a medicine that is prepared with tiger's milk.

It was announced all over the land that whoever gets the tiger milk will be rewarded. No one came forward. But Manikandan volunteered and the king agreed very hesitantly. The queen to pretended that she was unwilling to send him.

Manikandan went to the forest and was reminded by the Devas about the purpose of his incarnation. They also pleaded him to save them from Mahishi. After a fierce and long battle, Ayyappa killed Mahishi. The Devas in gratitude promised to help him in his mission. Indra became the male tiger and the others became tigresses and accompanied him to Pantala. Manikanda came back into the city riding the male tiger (Indra).

It was then that the king realised the true identity of the boy he had brought up as his son. He bowed down to him. The queen too apologised for tring to harm him. The king requested Ayyappa to grant permission to bulid a temple as a memory of Manikandan's stay with them.

As instructed by the sage Aghastya, Rajashekara built a temple with 18 steps on the Shabhari Hill and Sage Parasuram installed the image of Ayyappa in the temple.

This is all I know. But it got me thinking as to wheether Shabhari Hill was named after Shabhari as Ram and Lakshman met her near the river Pamba (or Pampa). Did she live there before all this happened? What was the time frame for all these events? The Shabhari Hill (Sabari Malai) is in present day Kerala.

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Thanks Vibs, you've explained it much better than I did 👏

but it wasn't a curse but a boon given to Mahishi 😃

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Yup, itdoes soundstrange; the plot now is goingbeyond reality.😔

Kush already knows how to handle a bow, (recognize a medicinal herb); both L-K wear sacred threads around their shoulders meaning they've already have undergone Yajnopavit sanskar (upanayan) Learning archery/weilding weaponsn upanayana are very important in a Kshatriya's life, sply so for K-L because they were away from their father. These things,they've not even shown them in glimpses

One thing all serials fail to show is that when anybody takes up archery, its not just important, in which hand you held a bow, oronly on ur concentration;most important is the EYE of the archer; the stronger 'eye' decides whether the archer is right handed( holding bow in his right hand) or left handed or ambidextrous.This thing goes unmentioned in all visual depictions😔

What was that saying about the line dividing the sublime and the ridiculous?🤢🤢🤢

Yeah, what Ananya and Rimi said. Dr Kush in action🤓 Also, Lav is the naughtier, but Kush is the braver, with the bow? And the yajnopavit thread and all that?

All these are ridiculous in their own right, but the thing that bothers me the most here is the depiction of these 2 as imps😡 - sneaking out when Matashri falls asleep and going to dangerous places. As it is, Sita had a sad time, away from Rama, and to exacerbate it with making her worry about her kids, when there is nothing to indicate that they were the type that would do that to her, really pisses me off!!! 😡😡😡 First they handle snakes, then they go off in the middle of the night to god knows where, and start confronting rakshashas. Geez, if they were to say that about Krishna or Bhima, I could understand, but Kush-Luv?

P.S. This thread passes the 100 mark👏

Vibs & Ananya

Thanks for refreshing me about the Ayappa story: I had forgotten why Vishnu had to be the mother. Yeah, I recall reading about this one, and the minister, who plays a manthara here, plotting the deal. After the whole incident, he developed an illness which was only cured after he bathed in a river and went to the temple constructed for Ayappa.

So what did Ayappa do once his mission was accomplished?

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Thanks a lot for the information Ananya.

I knew Manikandan was born to kill Mahishi but never knew about the curse.

Here's the story I have read.

Since Manikandan was the son of Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, he was considered an avtaar of both the Gods.

There was a king named Rajashekara, who had not children. He was the king of Pantala. Once, while passing by the banks of Pampa, he found a beautiful baby boy. As the king was looking at the baby, a sage told him to take him up and raise him as his own son. The sage also said that when the boy becomes 12 years old, the king will come to know who he really is. Accordingly, the king and his queen raised to boy as their own son. Their mininster was not happy as he was planning to become the king after the present one. But his plans were foiled due to that little boy.

The king sent the boy to Gurukul for his education. His teacher knew who he was. When Manikanda asked what will be the Gurudakshina, his teacher said, "I know that Shiva and Vishnu reside in you. I have a son who is not able to speak. It is enough if you can make him speak."

Manikanda placed the Vilva and Tulsi leaves in a cup of milk. He put some sacred ash into the cup after chanting a mantra. He made the boy (his Guru's son) drink it. The boy was able to speak after drinking it. The first words he uttered was " Ayya! Appa! Ayyappa!" Hence, Manikandan was also known as Ayyappa after this incident.

The king planned to crown Manikandan as the king.

After some years, a son was born to the queen whom they named Rajarajan. The king and the queen brought up both the boys with equal love. The minister who was waiting for an opportunity to get rid of Manikandan, started poisoning the queen's mind. He made her think that her own son must be the king and not Manikandan who was an orphan in the woods.

She feigned illness according to the minister's plans. The king was very much worried about his wife's illness. No one could find out the reason for the queen's ailment. The minister brought a fake medicant who said that the illness can only be cured with a medicine that is prepared with tiger's milk.

It was announced all over the land that whoever gets the tiger milk will be rewarded. No one came forward. But Manikandan volunteered and the king agreed very hesitantly. The queen to pretended that she was unwilling to send him.

Manikandan went to the forest and was reminded by the Devas about the purpose of his incarnation. They also pleaded him to save them from Mahishi. After a fierce and long battle, Ayyappa killed Mahishi. The Devas in gratitude promised to help him in his mission. Indra became the male tiger and the others became tigresses and accompanied him to Pantala. Manikanda came back into the city riding the male tiger (Indra).

It was then that the king realised the true identity of the boy he had brought up as his son. He bowed down to him. The queen too apologised for tring to harm him. The king requested Ayyappa to grant permission to bulid a temple as a memory of Manikandan's stay with them.

As instructed by the sage Aghastya, Rajashekara built a temple with 18 steps on the Shabhari Hill and Sage Parasuram installed the image of Ayyappa in the temple.

This is all I know. But it got me thinking as to wheether Shabhari Hill was named after Shabhari as Ram and Lakshman met her near the river Pamba (or Pampa). Did she live there before all this happened? What was the time frame for all these events? The Shabhari Hill (Sabari Malai) is in present day Kerala.

Originally posted by: _LalithaJanaki_

Oh okay, then is it in Ramcharitmanas that LBS are Sesh Nag, Sudarshan, and Panchajanya?

Amsas are like 'atoms' of Vishnu, or as you said, "partial avatars".

I used the term 'partial avatar' very specifically to describe the Hanuman/Shiva equation. Hanuman was said to have been created out of a limb of Shiva. But more precisely, what I meant was that if after the creation of the derivative god, the original god remains in his/her original abode, then the avatar is a partial avatar, as Hanuman was.

In the case of the Dasha avatar, I fail to see anything to suggest that any of the avatars were partial avatars. Matsya to Vamana were very short lived, so nobody would have missed Vishnu while he was out on those missions. Parashurama was long, and here, there is a school of thought that says that when Parashurama met Rama, that was when Vishnu's 6th avatar ended, and 7th began. Or else, Parashurama's avatar would have had to end before Rama was born. I tend to think the above school is right, and that Rama acquired the 'soul' of Vishnu after meeting parashurama.

The reason I find it impossible to believe that Vishnu was in Vaikuntha was the end story of their life. Had Vishnu been in Vaikuntha, the devas wouldn't have missed him and would have been only too happy to let Rama rule Ayodhya/Bhulok forever. But there was this contention between the devas and mortals as to who would have Vishnu, and here, mortals didn't stand a prayer. And what made their case even worse was the separation from Sita.

Krishna that way was fantastic - he knew everything about who he was, and went anywhere he liked, be it Vaikuntha, Mathura, Dwaraka, Indraprastha, Pragjyotisha, et al. I wonder whether even HKMK would have dared to show Vishnu in Vaikuntha simultaneously with Krishna in Dwaraka.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

What was that saying about the line dividing the sublime and the ridiculous?🤢🤢🤢

Yeah, what Ananya and Rimi said. Dr Kush in action🤓 Also, Lav is the naughtier, but Kush is the braver, with the bow? And the yajnopavit thread and all that?

All these are ridiculous in their own right, but the thing that bothers me the most here is the depiction of these 2 as imps😡 - sneaking out when Matashri falls asleep and going to dangerous places. As it is, Sita had a sad time, away from Rama, and to exacerbate it with making her worry about her kids, when there is nothing to indicate that they were the type that would do that to her, really pisses me off!!! 😡😡😡 First they handle snakes, then they go off in the middle of the night to god knows where, and start confronting rakshashas. Geez, if they were to say that about Krishna or Bhima, I could understand, but Kush-Luv?

P.S. This thread passes the 100 mark👏

One thing, Ananya - if the bow is in left hand, the archer is right handed, and vice versa: it's the positioning of the arrow, and the extent to which the string is pulled that will determine the aim. If you notice, most of the archers hold a bow with their left hand, even though most people are right handed. Even though the left hand is holding the bow, the right hand is doing the work such as rapidly pulling an arrow out of the quiver, positioning it on the bow, pulling the string to the right extent and then releasing it.

And Vibs is right - when both eyes are open, one would get a 'double vision' of a target in terms of any obstacles, and the way they are positioned. Ananya's term above - right eyed for instance - would be easily determined as follows. Say one tries to visually cover something with a finger so that it is unseen. Normally, one will notice that it's not completely unseen because the other eye's line of vision is different. But once one closes the eye that can spot it, then the image will be fully covered. The eye that sees the image fully covered defines whether the person is right eyed or left eyed.

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

I used the term 'partial avatar' very specifically to describe the Hanuman/Shiva equation. Hanuman was said to have been created out of a limb of Shiva. But more precisely, what I meant was that if after the creation of the derivative god, the original god remains in his/her original abode, then the avatar is a partial avatar, as Hanuman was.

In the case of the Dasha avatar, I fail to see anything to suggest that any of the avatars were partial avatars. Matsya to Vamana were very short lived, so nobody would have missed Vishnu while he was out on those missions. Parashurama was long, and here, there is a school of thought that says that when Parashurama met Rama, that was when Vishnu's 6th avatar ended, and 7th began. Or else, Parashurama's avatar would have had to end before Rama was born. I tend to think the above school is right, and that Rama acquired the 'soul' of Vishnu after meeting parashurama.

The reason I find it impossible to believe that Vishnu was in Vaikuntha was the end story of their life. Had Vishnu been in Vaikuntha, the devas wouldn't have missed him and would have been only too happy to let Rama rule Ayodhya/Bhulok forever. But there was this contention between the devas and mortals as to who would have Vishnu, and here, mortals didn't stand a prayer. And what made their case even worse was the separation from Sita.

Krishna that way was fantastic - he knew everything about who he was, and went anywhere he liked, be it Vaikuntha, Mathura, Dwaraka, Indraprastha, Pragjyotisha, et al. I wonder whether even HKMK would have dared to show Vishnu in Vaikuntha simultaneously with Krishna in Dwaraka.

Originally posted by: Vibhishna

Regarding Parashuram meeting Ram, it was only at that time he first did something out of the ordinary, if I remember right.

He lifted up Shiva's bow and it broke into two. Hearing this Parashuram came for a duel with Ram and Ram easily defeated him. These were feats impossible for humans. Did Valmiki Ramayan mention any other incident where Ram shows his divinity (though unaware of it himself) before the breaking of the Shiv Danush?

The reason I don't find Lord Vishnu being in Vaikundha as strage is that, when the demons ask for their boons they mention that they shouldn't be killed by the Gods (including Lord Vishnu). If Lord Vishnu was to descend himself (his full complete self on Earth) its as good as Lord Vishnu himself being there. For him to fulfill the terms of the boons, he has to let a part of him (or an Earthly form of himself) with his power and capacity to be born on Earth and destroy evil.

I can think of two reasons as to why the Devas wanted to call back Ram -

One being, even though the avtaar maybe a part or amsa of Lord Vishnu the entire form of Lord Vishnu may have been incomplete without either of them. Hence, the avtaar returning to Valkundha makes Lord Vishnu whole and perhaps this was why the Devas called him back.

The second - to maintain the balance on the Earth. As long as there was Ram Rajya, only goodness will reign. The end of Ram avtaar will signify some evil creeeping back (some sort of balance of good and evil) Also all good things must come to an end too. Nothing goes on forever in this world of mortals.

I may be well off the point, but I admit that these are just my guesses.

P.S. The term 'amsa' can also denote 'a part' of someone or something.