Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 10

Created

Last reply

Replies

821

Views

99.6k

Users

36

Likes

61

Frequent Posters

Vr15h thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail IPL 2024 Participants Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 16 years ago
#91

Originally posted by: chen2chic

An Avatar is usually a descent of the Lord in a specific form for a specific purpose. Does not mean non existence of Him in His original abode. And after the purpose is accomplished, the avatar merges with the Supreme formless Lord. And then the Lord always has the characteristic of being a Sarvavyaapi (omnipresent).
And the Sarvavyaapi concept could also be applied in this case of Vishnu-Lakshmi in Vaikunth and Ram-Sita in Bhulok.

Avatar means 'descending from far-away'. So I would think avatar means precisely that - the transportation of the god from his original abode to his temporary assignment. In fact, if your theory about the omnipresence of Vishnu is correct, why did Brahma and the devas ask for Rama to come back to Vaikuntha? After all, they still had Vishnu/Lakshmi in Vaikuntha, while Rama was at Ayodhya, making everyone happy. Only one unhappy was Rama due to his separation from Sita, but if that was the driving factor, wouldn't the initiative to end the avatar have come from Rama, instead of Brahma/Ka'al/Durvasa?

In fact, do any of the Puranas that deal with the dasha avatar explicitly have it that Vishnu was in Vaikuntha while Matsya, Varaha, et al were busy with their work elsewhere?

P.S. It was in the context of the above discussion on Kurma avatar that I 'gifted' Vibs the 2 Samudra-manthan clips.

Edited by Chandraketu - 16 years ago
Vr15h thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail IPL 2024 Participants Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 16 years ago
#92

loveanime

By the 'Mohini story', are you referring to the Mohini in the Kurma avatar who seduces the asuras and pours the Amrit for the devas, or are you referring to Mohini & Shiva conceiving Ayappa?

Same108

Did Bhasmasura happen after Ayappa? Normally, Vishnu would be obligated to 'save' Shiva and Brahma from any dangers (not that he always succeeds, such as when he gets trounced by Ganesh who is blocking Shiva from entering home w/o Parvati's go ahead). That said, if Bhasmasura happened after Ayappa, then technically Mohini would be obligated to save Shiva, or risk getting widowed. From what I recall, Shiva did show his appreciation to Vishnu.

RamKiSeeta thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail Achiever Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 16 years ago
#93

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Avatar means 'descending from far-away'. So I would think avatar means precisely that - the transportation of the god from his original abode to his temporary assignment. In fact, if your theory about the omnipresence of Vishnu is correct, why did Brahma and the devas ask for Rama to come back to Vaikuntha? After all, they still had Vishnu/Lakshmi in Vaikuntha, while Rama was at Ayodhya, making everyone happy. Only one unhappy was Rama due to his separation from Sita, but if that was the driving factor, wouldn't the initiative to end the avatar have come from Rama, instead of Brahma/Ka'al/Durvasa?

In fact, do any of the Puranas that deal with the dasha avatar explicitly have it that Vishnu was in Vaikuntha while Matsya, Varaha, et al were busy with their work elsewhere?

P.S. It was in the context of the above discussion on Kurma avatar that I 'gifted' Vibs the 2 Samudra-manthan clips.

I don't know if this is right, but my theory is that the avatars of Lord Vishnu which had a "long lifetime" like Parashuram, Shri Ram, and Shri Krishna were fully Vishnu himself, but avatars like Matsya, Kurma, Varaha, Narasimha, and Vamana were amsas of Vishnu.
I have a question though. Are Lakshman, Bharat, and Shatrughan the avatars of Seshnag, Sudarshan Chakra, and the Shankha (forgot its name, sorry) respectively, or are they amsas of Vishnu?
Vr15h thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail IPL 2024 Participants Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 16 years ago
#94

Valmiki's version has nothing about LBS being avatars of Sesha nag, Panchajanya and Sudarshan. He simply has them as partial avatars of Vishnu (maybe represented by the payas division?)

What are 'amsas'?

loveanime thumbnail
19th Anniversary Thumbnail Rocker Thumbnail + 2
Posted: 16 years ago
#95
I was referring to Mohini and Shiv conceiving Ayappa. My grandps told me that story years ago and I was like you serious. I wonder what Lakshmi really thought poor thing. That is Indian mythology for you.
bharat9 thumbnail
17th Anniversary Thumbnail Dazzler Thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#96

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Just watched today's epi What is this new plot of Takshaketu ?? Never heard of him before...😕

This is becoming 'Alif-Laila' , Dharam-Veer types, which were fantasy thriller-fictions,👎🏼 of Sagars.
By any chance does the story od Takshaketu appear in any versions of Ramayana??
Sita maiyya was so worried, in absence of Valmiki rishi she was looking so helpless.😔
And Kush already knows how to handle a bow?? Strange that them taking up archery nor playing with bows and arrows wasn't showed before even once.😕



Also another thing,
wen Valmiki is out of the aashram, and the old lady is ill, im surprised that none of the other ppl living in the ashram knows how to get the herbs! but yes, LK, knew! strange!
surely, there must be some other rishis who also have knwledge of herbs in case someone falls ill!!
ananyacool thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#97
Discussion about why Vishnu as Mohini consummating with Shiva was going on...
The reason was that a boon given to "Mahishi", cousin of Mahishasur ,who was slayed by Durga.
So the story is related to Durga killing Mahishasura, after his death ,his cousin Mahishi in a fit of rage to avenge her cousin's killing does a severe penance and asks for the boon of immortality from Brahma but since this wasn't possible Brahma tells her to ask for another boon which was 'near to immortality' Mahishi slyly asks that a son from Vishnu and Shiva's union should slay her; Brahma chuckles and says 'so be it' n vanishes. Mahishi is so thrilled thinking she's almost immortal now because both Vishnu n Shiva being male ,how could they reproduce a son??
As usual she becoms a tyrant ,troubling the three worlds...
All the worried Devtas approach Vishnu n Shiv for help, it is then Vishnu takes the form of Mohini 'enchantress' and consummate with Shiva, thus a son is born to them ,who has the powers of Shiva n Vishnu
The baby is left in the forest and a King called 'Pandalam' who is childless, adopts the baby calling him Manikandan , because of a gem adorning his neck.
Manikandan is very reared very lovingly by the king n queen ,untill the queen has her own son. She starts hating Manikandan and wants him out of the way so that her real son can become the crown prince so she sends Manikandan to the forest pretending to have a stomach ache n that it can be cured only by drinking milk of a tigress.
Manikandan sets out to forest n it is here he encounters Mahishi n kills her, I think.
ananyacool thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail Voyager Thumbnail Engager Level 1 Thumbnail
Posted: 16 years ago
#98

Originally posted by: bharat9



Also another thing,
wen Valmiki is out of the aashram, and the old lady is ill, im surprised that none of the other ppl living in the ashram knows how to get the herbs! but yes, LK, knew! strange!
surely, there must be some other rishis who also have knwledge of herbs in case someone falls ill!!

Yup, it does sound strange; the plot now is going beyond reality.😔
Kush already knows how to handle a bow, (recognize a medicinal herb); both L-K wear sacred threads around their shoulders meaning they've already have undergone Yajnopavit sanskar (upanayan) Learning archery/weilding weapons n upanayana are very important in a Kshatriya's life, sply so for K-L because they were away from their father. These things, they've not even shown them in glimpses
One thing all serials fail to show is that when anybody takes up archery, its not just important, in which hand you held a bow, or only on ur concentration; most important is the EYE of the archer; the stronger 'eye' decides whether the archer is right handed( holding bow in his right hand) or left handed or ambidextrous. This thing goes unmentioned in all visual depictions😔
RamKiSeeta thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail Achiever Thumbnail + 6
Posted: 16 years ago
#99

Originally posted by: Chandraketu

Valmiki's version has nothing about LBS being avatars of Sesha nag, Panchajanya and Sudarshan. He simply has them as partial avatars of Vishnu (maybe represented by the payas division?)

What are 'amsas'?

Oh okay, then is it in Ramcharitmanas that LBS are Sesh Nag, Sudarshan, and Panchajanya?
Amsas are like 'atoms' of Vishnu, or as you said, "partial avatars".
Vibhishna thumbnail
16th Anniversary Thumbnail The Rang- Rasa Cronicles Participant Thumbnail + 3
Posted: 16 years ago

Originally posted by: ananyacool

Discussion about why Vishnu as Mohini consummating with Shiva was going on...

The reason was that a boon given to "Mahishi", cousin of Mahishasur ,who was slayed by Durga.
So the story is related to Durga killing Mahishasura, after his death ,his cousin Mahishi in a fit of rage to avenge her cousin's killing does a severe penance and asks for the boon of immortality from Brahma but since this wasn't possible Brahma tells her to ask for another boon which was 'near to immortality' Mahishi slyly asks that a son from Vishnu and Shiva's union should slay her; Brahma chuckles and says 'so be it' n vanishes. Mahishi is so thrilled thinking she's almost immortal now because both Vishnu n Shiva being male ,how could they reproduce a son??
As usual she becoms a tyrant ,troubling the three worlds...
All the worried Devtas approach Vishnu n Shiv for help, it is then Vishnu takes the form of Mohini 'enchantress' and consummate with Shiva, thus a son is born to them ,who has the powers of Shiva n Vishnu
The baby is left in the forest and a King called 'Pandalam' who is childless, adopts the baby calling him Manikandan , because of a gem adorning his neck.
Manikandan is very reared very lovingly by the king n queen ,untill the queen has her own son. She starts hating Manikandan and wants him out of the way so that her real son can become the crown prince so she sends Manikandan to the forest pretending to have a stomach ache n that it can be cured only by drinking milk of a tigress.
Manikandan sets out to forest n it is here he encounters Mahishi n kills her, I think.



Thanks a lot for the information Ananya.

I knew Manikandan was born to kill Mahishi but never knew about the curse.

Here's the story I have read.

Since Manikandan was the son of Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, he was considered an avtaar of both the Gods.

There was a king named Rajashekara, who had not children. He was the king of Pantala. Once, while passing by the banks of Pampa, he found a beautiful baby boy. As the king was looking at the baby, a sage told him to take him up and raise him as his own son. The sage also said that when the boy becomes 12 years old, the king will come to know who he really is. Accordingly, the king and his queen raised to boy as their own son. Their mininster was not happy as he was planning to become the king after the present one. But his plans were foiled due to that little boy.

The king sent the boy to Gurukul for his education. His teacher knew who he was. When Manikanda asked what will be the Gurudakshina, his teacher said, "I know that Shiva and Vishnu reside in you. I have a son who is not able to speak. It is enough if you can make him speak."

Manikanda placed the Vilva and Tulsi leaves in a cup of milk. He put some sacred ash into the cup after chanting a mantra. He made the boy (his Guru's son) drink it. The boy was able to speak after drinking it. The first words he uttered was " Ayya! Appa! Ayyappa!" Hence, Manikandan was also known as Ayyappa after this incident.

The king planned to crown Manikandan as the king.

After some years, a son was born to the queen whom they named Rajarajan. The king and the queen brought up both the boys with equal love. The minister who was waiting for an opportunity to get rid of Manikandan, started poisoning the queen's mind. He made her think that her own son must be the king and not Manikandan who was an orphan in the woods.

She feigned illness according to the minister's plans. The king was very much worried about his wife's illness. No one could find out the reason for the queen's ailment. The minister brought a fake medicant who said that the illness can only be cured with a medicine that is prepared with tiger's milk.

It was announced all over the land that whoever gets the tiger milk will be rewarded. No one came forward. But Manikandan volunteered and the king agreed very hesitantly. The queen to pretended that she was unwilling to send him.

Manikandan went to the forest and was reminded by the Devas about the purpose of his incarnation. They also pleaded him to save them from Mahishi. After a fierce and long battle, Ayyappa killed Mahishi. The Devas in gratitude promised to help him in his mission. Indra became the male tiger and the others became tigresses and accompanied him to Pantala. Manikanda came back into the city riding the male tiger (Indra).

It was then that the king realised the true identity of the boy he had brought up as his son. He bowed down to him. The queen too apologised for tring to harm him. The king requested Ayyappa to grant permission to bulid a temple as a memory of Manikandan's stay with them.

As instructed by the sage Aghastya, Rajashekara built a temple with 18 steps on the Shabhari Hill and Sage Parasuram installed the image of Ayyappa in the temple.

This is all I know. But it got me thinking as to wheether Shabhari Hill was named after Shabhari as Ram and Lakshman met her near the river Pamba (or Pampa). Did she live there before all this happened? What was the time frame for all these events? The Shabhari Hill (Sabari Malai) is in present day Kerala.

Related Topics

Top

Stay Connected with IndiaForums!

Be the first to know about the latest news, updates, and exclusive content.

Add to Home Screen!

Install this web app on your iPhone for the best experience. It's easy, just tap and then "Add to Home Screen".