꧁༺ | ꧁•⊹Ishita⊹•꧂ AT # 1 - Page 9

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

One of the other reasons I believe Arjuna knew is the mention of the invisible demon who guarded Panchali while in the palace. Bheema wasn't inside the palace. Only Arjuna was.

Panchali pushed Keechaka down and ran. tHEN, Then the insivisible demon whirled Keechaka around. i think it was Arjuna. A quick attack and escape before Keechaka could even see who it was, this buying Panchali time to escape.

Droupadi said, “If it is true that I do not know anyone other than the Pandus, then through that truth, let Kichaka not be able to overpower me when I reach that place.” Then the weak one worshipped Surya7 for an instant. Surya got to know everything from the slender-waisted one and instructed an invisible rakshasa to protect her. Under no circumstances was the rakshasa supposed to leave the side of the unblemished one. ‘On seeing Krishna approach like a frightened doe, the suta arose, as if one wishing to cross a river has found a boat.’

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

The tone of it is also another issue. W're talking about Uttara's uncle and cousins being killed. Arjuna doesn't hesitate in calling them evil in her presence. Actually, neither does she.

Having learnt what had happened, those present in the assembly honoured Krishna a lot. They congratulated her and condemned Kichaka. The courtiers said, “The man who possesses this longeyed one with the unblemished limbs as a wife, has obtained the supreme and need not sorrow over anything.” The courtiers saw Krishna and honoured her in this fashion.

And like i said by then so much had happened that even the King nor the queen thought of avenging the deaths of their family members. No one except for Upakichakas really blamed Draupadi because they all knew she was innocent

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

hmm no the invisible demon was some one who was sent by Surya. Has nothing to do with Arjuna. Before going to Kichaka, Draupadi prayed to Surya and he sent some one to protect her. Similar Krishna protecting Draupadi during dice hall.

Droupadi said, “If it is true that I do not know anyone other than the Pandus, then through that truth, let Kichaka not be able to overpower me when I reach that place.” Then the weak one worshipped Surya7 for an instant. Surya got to know everything from the slender-waisted one and instructed an invisible rakshasa to protect her. Under no circumstances was the rakshasa supposed to leave the side of the unblemished one. ‘On seeing Krishna approach like a frightened doe, the suta arose, as if one wishing to cross a river has found a boat.’

I interpret strictly within realm of reality. The sun in the sky could not have sent anyone. Nor was there a demon. The only person with inclination to help her in the palace was Arjuna.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

But yeah, if shows portrayed the characters as they were, a lot of people would be shocked out of their minds. Yudhishtira's words to and about Panchali in the dice hall, his words to her in Virat's court... the man didn't deserve her, didn't deserve the empire.

I think if characters are portrayed as they really were then Pandavas would lose the most. Not that they were evil, overall they were still the good guys but definately they committed some heinous crimes of their own.

Karna would also lose a lot as he was one of the main culprits in the dice hall and not a by-stander.

Dury would gain as he is given the blame for most of what Karna said and did in the dice hall.

Draupadi would more or less remain the same. I mean if we go by critical edition even she may gain as she never rejected Karna for being a Sut putra as per critical edition.

Imagine a tv show actually showing the UpaKichaka scene. Draupadi being dragged to the funeral pyre and her calling out to her husbands to save her but only Bhima showing up. Where would that leave the image we have of Yudi, Arjuna, Nakul and Sahdev?

I hope one day we don't get the whitewashed versions.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I interpret strictly within realm of reality. The sun in the sky could not have sent anyone. Nor was there a demon. The only person with inclination to help her in the palace was Arjuna.

There is no mention of Arjuna anywhere to relate that person being Arjuna. Why wouldn't his name just be there rather than invisible rakshasa? Why would Draupadi think Bhima is the only one to protect her if Arjuna was already doing so? Or was he so invisible that even Draupadi didn't see him? How is that realistic? And where did his inclination disappear when Draupadi was being dragged to be burnt alive? Bhima was also in his kitchen by then sleeping where he usually does.

Nonetheless nothing in epic is certain so if that's what you believe then to each their own. Personally i don't see anything in the text that mentions any such connection.

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Yudi in relation to Draupadi has a very bad image as it is. It cant be whitewashed.😆

I think if characters are portrayed as they really were then Pandavas would lose the most. Not that they were evil overall they were still the good guys but defiantly they committed some heinous crimes of their own.

Karna would also lose a lot as he was one of the main culprits in the dice hall and not a by-stander

Dury would gain as he is given the blame for most of what Karna said and did in the dice hall

Draupadi would more or less remain the same. I mean if we go by critical edition even she may gain as she never rejected Karna for being a Sut putra as per critical edition.

Imagine a tv show actually showing the UpaKichaka scene. Draupadi being dragged to the funeral pyre and her calling out to her husbands to save her but only Bhima showing up. Where would that leave the image we have of Yudi, Arjuna, Nakul and Sahdev?

I hope one day we don't get the whitewashed versions.

I mean these words.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02064.htm

Yudhishthira said,--'WithDraupadi as stake, who is neither short nor tall, neither spare nor corpulent,and who is possessed of blue curly locks, I will now play with thee. Possessedof eyes like the leaves of the autumn lotus, and fragrant also as the autumnlotus, equal in beauty unto her (Lakshmi) who delighteth in autumn lotuses, andunto Sree herself in symmetry and every grace she is such a woman as a man maydesire for wife in respect of softness of heart, and wealth of beauty and ofvirtues. Possessed of every accomplishment and compassionate andsweet-speeched, she is such a woman as a man may desire for wife in respect ofher fitness for the acquisition of virtue and pleasure and wealth. Retiring tobed last and waking up first, she looketh after all down to the cowherds andthe shepherds. Her face too, when covered with sweat, looketh as the lotus orthe jasmine. Of slender waist like that of the wasp, of long flowing locks, ofred lips, and body without down, is the princess of Panchala. O king, makingthe slender-waisted Draupadi, who is even such as my stake, I will play withthee, O son of Suvala.'"

This is how he describes her before staking her - to a court full of men.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02066.htm

"Yudhishthira,however, O bull of the Bharata race, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent atrusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in onepiece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her seasonhaving come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly.

Basically, come to a court full of men half-clad.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04016.htm

And that bull of the Kururace then addressed that princess, his beloved spouse, saying, 'Stay not here,O Sairindhri; but retire to the apartments of Sudeshna. The wives of heroesbear affliction for the sake of their husbands, and undergoing toil inministering unto their lords, they at last attain to region where theirhusbands may go. Thy Gandharva husbands, effulgent as the sun, do not, Iimagine, consider this as an occasion for manifesting their wrath, inasmuch asthey do not rush to thy aid. O Sairindhri, thou art ignorant of thetimeliness of things, and it is for this that thou weepest as an actress,besides interrupting the play of dice in Matsya's court. Retire, O Sairindhri;the Gandharvas will do what is agreeable to thee. And they will surely displaythy woe and take the life of him that hath wronged thee.'

So put up with Keechaka until the exile is over.

__________________

No TV show has ever shown this nature of Yudhishtira.

Karna would totally lose, I agree. he was the main instigator in most of Suyodhana's crimes, from murder attempts on Pandavas to dice hall. He also was extremely casteist and sexist as shown in his conversation with Shalya.

Shakuni would massively gain as the poor chap really had only a small role.

Suyodhana would massively gain.

Bheeshma would massively lose if all the misogynistic things he said were put out there - esp the part where he says cheating women should be eaten by dogs.

Krishna would massively lose with re: Subhadraharan and Khandavadaahan as well as Ghatotkatch.

So would Arjuna, but he would also gain as he was the ONLY Pandava to speak in support of Panchali in dice hall. That, too, right after Suyodhana made that ridiculous offer to free her if one of them Pandavas would speak up.

Panchali would massively gain if she is shown rescuing herself in dice hall as she actually did. Her lecture to Krishna on justice. Her conversations with Yudhistira in Vana Parva where she talks about dharma and karma of being a ruler. The attack she ordered on Kubera's tribe. The dialogue on crime and punishment after Jayadratha. The small lecture she gave Virat again on duties of rulers. The Keechaka episode as it was. Her lecture to Krishna on dharma and karma of rulers just before he goes on peace mission.

Vyasa would also likely gain as he was the plotter in the entire story, more than krishna.

Narada would gain more notoriety for his obviously deliberate creation of insecurity in Yudhishtira.

Would end this topic by saying another thing that i love in the whole Kichaka incident is the respect Draupadi and Bhima had for each other. After the whole ordeal ends, following happens:-

O king! Panchali saw Bhimasena standing at the door of the kitchen, like a large and crazy elephant. She was surprised and softly spoke to him in a secret language,49 “I honour the king of the gandharvas, who has freed me.” -Basically for her he was the leader of the Pandavas

Bhimasena replied, “The men who roam here are under her control now. Having heard her words, they are roaming without any debts.”-An oblique reference that the Pandavas will pay attention to Droupadi’s needs. KMG puts it beautifully as well

What Bhima says is this.--Then Gandharvas, your husbands, are always obedient to thee! If they have been able to do thee a service, they have only repaid a debt.

Originally posted by: Sabhayata

Realm of reality would be that she did herself. That in way she prayed to god and somehow found that power within herself.

There is no mention of Arjuna anywhere to relate that person being Arjuna. Why wouldn't his name just be there rather than invisible rakshasa? Why would Draupadi think Bhima is the only one to protect her if Arjuna was already doing so? Or was he so invisible that even Draupadi didn't see him? How is that realistic? And where did his inclination disappear when Draupadi was being dragged to be burnt alive? Bhima was also in his kitchen by then sleeping where he usually does.

Nonetheless nothing in epic is certain so if that's what you believe then to each their own. Personally i don't see anything in the text that mentions any such connection.

She did push Keechaka down and run. The mention of demon comes after. There was a 2nd person. the only 2nd person was Arjuna.

Not only that, Panchali could've possibly shoved Keechaka down to escape. But there is no way a woman, however athletic, would be able to whirl around a seasoned wrestler of the male persuasion.

Arjuna could not kill Keechaka as he could not bring his weapon in and shoot an arrow. It had to be Bheema. Same for Upakeechaka episode.

Realistically speaking, Pandavas would have to be insane to leave Panchali alone in the palace. They'd just come off the 12-year part of the exile where she survived multiple kidnapping/assassination attempts (all those "demons") . Plus, Jayadratha. If they actually let her be in the palace by herself with no protection, they were stupid to say the least. And I do think Arjuna's chosen disguise was a way to get him into the palace.

____

Anyway, it's not a major plot point.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I mean these words.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02064.htm

Yudhishthira said,--'WithDraupadi as stake, who is neither short nor tall, neither spare nor corpulent,and who is possessed of blue curly locks, I will now play with thee. Possessedof eyes like the leaves of the autumn lotus, and fragrant also as the autumnlotus, equal in beauty unto her (Lakshmi) who delighteth in autumn lotuses, andunto Sree herself in symmetry and every grace she is such a woman as a man maydesire for wife in respect of softness of heart, and wealth of beauty and ofvirtues. Possessed of every accomplishment and compassionate andsweet-speeched, she is such a woman as a man may desire for wife in respect ofher fitness for the acquisition of virtue and pleasure and wealth. Retiring tobed last and waking up first, she looketh after all down to the cowherds andthe shepherds. Her face too, when covered with sweat, looketh as the lotus orthe jasmine. Of slender waist like that of the wasp, of long flowing locks, ofred lips, and body without down, is the princess of Panchala. O king, makingthe slender-waisted Draupadi, who is even such as my stake, I will play withthee, O son of Suvala.'"

This is how he describes her before staking her - to a court full of men.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m02/m02066.htm

"Yudhishthira,however, O bull of the Bharata race, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent atrusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in onepiece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her seasonhaving come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly.

Basically, come to a court full of men half-clad.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04016.htm

And that bull of the Kururace then addressed that princess, his beloved spouse, saying, 'Stay not here,O Sairindhri; but retire to the apartments of Sudeshna. The wives of heroesbear affliction for the sake of their husbands, and undergoing toil inministering unto their lords, they at last attain to region where theirhusbands may go. Thy Gandharva husbands, effulgent as the sun, do not, Iimagine, consider this as an occasion for manifesting their wrath, inasmuch asthey do not rush to thy aid. O Sairindhri, thou art ignorant of thetimeliness of things, and it is for this that thou weepest as an actress,besides interrupting the play of dice in Matsya's court. Retire, O Sairindhri;the Gandharvas will do what is agreeable to thee. And they will surely displaythy woe and take the life of him that hath wronged thee.'

So put up with Keechaka until the exile is over.

__________________

No TV show has ever shown this nature of Yudhishtira.

Karna would totally lose, I agree. he was the main instigator in most of Suyodhana's crimes, from murder attempts on Pandavas to dice hall. He also was extremely casteist and sexist as shown in his conversation with Shalya.

Shakuni would massively gain as the poor chap really had only a small role.

Suyodhana would massively gain.

Bheeshma would massively lose if all the misogynistic things he said were put out there - esp the part where he says cheating women should be eaten by dogs.

Krishna would massively lose with re: Subhadraharan and Khandavadaahan as well as Ghatotkatch.

So would Arjuna, but he would also gain as he was the ONLY Pandava to speak in support of Panchali in dice hall. That, too, right after Suyodhana made that ridiculous offer to free her if one of them Pandavas would speak up.

Panchali would massively gain if she is shown rescuing herself in dice hall as she actually did. Her lecture to Krishna on justice. Her conversations with Yudhistira in Vana Parva where she talks about dharma and karma of being a ruler. The attack she ordered on Kubera's tribe. The dialogue on crime and punishment after Jayadratha. The small lecture she gave Virat again on duties of rulers. The Keechaka episode as it was. Her lecture to Krishna on dharma and karma of rulers just before he goes on peace mission.

Vyasa would also likely gain as he was the plotter in the entire story, more than krishna.

Narada would gain more notoriety for his obviously deliberate creation of insecurity in Yudhishtira.

But all Pandavas together including Arjuna would lose a lot

1) All Pandavas killed innocent people during house of lac to save themselves

2) Arjuna feel in love with Subhadara at first sight . There is no POV of Subhadra regarding this in the entire epic. Its mostly shown that Subhadara falls in love with Arjuna but that's not the case.

3) Then the whole Khandavdahan incident is not as simple as it is generally portrayed.

4) Arjun did nothing in the dice hall accept say one indirect statement that Kauravas should decide if Yudi was the leader or not. He didn't do or say anything directly. Most of the oaths were taken by Bhima and infact Bhima made Arjun take the oath to kill Karna. Arjuna's only response was ok if you say so😆. None of the Pandavas can come looking good from the dice hall. They were all awful especially with the fact that Shakuni didn't really cheat.

5) Then the whole Upkichaka incident

Karna's image wold definately change from what it is today.

The whole conversation of Krishna offering Draupadi to Karna is quiet bad in taste if actually shown.

Dury and Sahkuni will massively gain. They neither plotted nor planed anything during dice hall. Shakuni was genuinely more skilled that is all.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

She did push Keechaka down and run. The mention of demon comes after. There was a 2nd person. the only 2nd person was Arjuna.

Not only that, Panchali could've possibly shoved Keechaka down to escape. But there is no way a woman, however athletic, would be able to whirl around a seasoned wrestler of the male persuasion.

Arjuna could not kill Keechaka as he could not bring his weapon in and shoot an arrow. It had to be Bheema. Same for Upakeechaka episode.

Realistically speaking, Pandavas would have to be insane to leave Panchali alone in the palace. They'd just come off the 12-year part of the exile where she survived multiple kidnapping/assassination attempts (all those "demons") . Plus, Jayadratha. If they actually let her be in the palace by herself with no protection, they were stupid to say the least. And I do think Arjuna's chosen disguise was a way to get him into the palace.

____

Anyway, it's not a major plot point.

Was he so invisible that even Drau didn't see him? Why was she only thankful to Bhima? Most of all why call him invisible Raksha at all? And if he could protect Drau without weapons then why couldn't he do it again?

Nonetheless the whole Upkichaka incident makes me very uncomfortable . No Pandav doing anything except Bhima when she is being literally being burnt alive is a little bit too much for me to digest or even ignore.