Radha Krishn- EDT & The Epic based Doubts/ Discussions - Page 46

Feel like throwing bricks on RK s krishna s head.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

@Red. Being master manipulator would be all right if it were presented as something wrong. But here, it is justified!

Take the epic version of Subhadrahraran. Vyasa's Krshna vocalized a hundred justifications to himself and Yadavas as to why it as the right thing to do. And I don't remember him actually calling Subhadra a thing. In fact, he says outright he doesn't know what she'd choose if left to herself. Ie, he knew she had a right to her decisions but was knowingly the bad guy for purely political reasons.

RK Krishna is an utter hypocrite. He seems to believe what he says to the ladies, but when their backs are turned, talks of them as things to be handed from man to man for political needs. An the whole thing is justified to the audience via presentation and narration.

And Swastik shifts the blame for the men's wrongdoings onto the women.

My God! Karna not only incited the sexual assault on Panchali, he ran a sex trafficking ring from Anga! Why is that man touted as a hero by this production house, no matter his caste? Okay, let's say they simply want a lower caste hero and therefore will whitewash him. But they're still using the suthaputhra comment (remember, 0.25% of manuscripts have it, AND it was dismissed as interpolation by BORI) to justify the later sexual assault on Panchali! And she is shown as a silly twit so blinded by love she was willing to insult someone by caste! The shocked look on Krishna's face was the ultimate. So he could talk about her as a thing, but she couldn't reject a potential husband for whatever reason she pleased? Years later, this apparently leads to the attack o her. So what's the difference between this and an acid attack? Is Swastik defending, and using Krishna to defend, acid attacks on women who have the temerity to reject men?

Polyandry was Vyasa's idea! He tells Pandavas to go and get Panchali long before swayamvara. Arjuna and everyone else KNEW when they went there. But again, blame is placed on Kunti.

Also, Suyodhana was actually Karna's katputhali. Never mind that... how was Arjuna not katputhali? The same 5 men wo sat on their hands and watched Panchali getting sexually assaulted at the hands of Karna and Dusshasan because elder brother said so?

The latest episode shocked me. To openly state she was merely a thing!

Red: yes. That has always been the problem. It's not only justified but also romanticised.

This krishna isn't a God (by God, I mean the just between just and unjust, the right between right and wrong, the good between good and evil etc. ) but a narcissistic human with a massive God complex.

In Subhadra story, Krishna told Subhadra to be the charioteer and Arjun as the passenger as a woman has the right to take a man with her and elope because of her own choice and decision. That's another woman empowering moment from MB.

I think even here they will represent it as such on the outer surface but ultimately it will just be another piece in Krishna's masterplan ( some plan with no purpose )

I don't even get what dharma sthapana is Krishna bragging about so much. He still doesn't know whom Draupadi will marry( or else he wouldn't have bothered to talk with Karn about that). He still expects Duryadhan to go through redemption. If that happens then there would be no war. And then while talking to Radha, he implies they will be together after the war. RK Krishna's character has always lacked consistency and it still does.

As for the other points you made, I am yet to watch today's episode. I will watch at 9.

Karn ran a sex racket ? And duryodhana was his puppet and not Shakuni's ? I never knew that. You said some interesting points regarding Karn. I would like to know more about that.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

How do these lines get past censors?

Because objectification and abuse of women is absolutely fine. That's why films like mastizaade, grand masti, Kabir singh, ranjhana, kya kool hai hum and songs like gandi baat, honey singh songs etc. get passed smoothly through the censor.

Now what's bad is women's sexuality. That's why films like lipstick under my burkha and fire get banned.

Moral of the story : Women should not have their own sexual feelings and needs and should only exist for men to use and abuse them.

@SB

I have a whole bunch of notes on several MBh character. Posting Karna notes here.

ALL OF THE CITATIONS BELOW ARE FROM PUBLIC DOMAIN AND NOT SUBJECT TO COPYRIGHT REGULATIONS. I DO HAVE THE SAME FROM CE BUT CANNOT POST HERE AS THE LAST TIME I TRIED, SOMEONE REPORTED ME TO IF MODS FOR COPYRIGHT VIOLATION.

Part 1

• Karna was a lower caste boy. Wrong!

Karna's adoptive father, Athiratha, was of Suta caste which is an intercaste of Kshatriya father and Brahmin mother.

NOTE:SUTA ≠ SHUDRA

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/manu/manu10.htm

• · Sutascould only dive chariots. Wrong!

Suta were story tellers (Ugrasrava), charioteers (Adhirath), ministers (Sanjaya), generals(Keechak), queens (Sudeshna - queen of Matsya), kings (Anga was ruled by Suta descended from Suta king Vijaya). They were free to choose an occupation that interested them.

Santi Parva: Rajadharmanusasana Parva: Section II

• His adoptive father was a charioteer. Wrong!

Athirathawas a prince of the Ikshvaku dynasty, descended from Dasharath. He might havebeen king, I think, of Anga

chitra-ratha's son is → dasha-ratha… whose daughter is shAnta, who is given to theson of sage vibhANDaka, namely sage R^ishya-shR^i~Nga; dasha-ratha’s son is → catura~Nga whose descent is at the grace of sage R^ishya- shR^i~Nga,who conducted a vedic ritual called putra-kAmeShTi on behalf of dasha-ratha to effectuate the birth of chatura~na; from chatura~Nga → pR^ithula-akSha → champa;this king champa’s capital is champA-puri,aka mAlini-puri; he begot one prince called harya~Nga

...

This is the patriline from harya~Nga → bR^ihat-karmA→bR^ihad-darbha →bR^ihat-manAH →jayadratha →

...

O king janamejaya, king jayadrathais born of lady yashodevi. And from lady satya is born the celebrated king vijaya,who by his equanimity of mind and other qualities is superior to the brAhmaNa-sand by heroism and other accomplishments, is superior to the kshatriya-s...

vijaya's son is dhR^itiwhose son is dhR^ita-vrata. His son is the highlyillustrious satya-karma...

The son of satya-vrata through a brAhmaNalady is a sUta - because of the rule: brAhmaNyAm kshatriya jAtaH sUta iti abhidhIyate -

and this mighty chariot-warrior draws the suffix of ratha in his name from the very same dynasty of kshatriya-s with –ratha suffix, and he is called athi-ratha, who later adopted the son of lady kunti, namely karNa as his son. It is therefore karNa is called the son of a charioteer... the family of the highly powerful karNa has thus been described. karNa's son is vR^iSha-sena whose son is vR^iSha...

http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/hv_1_31.html

the child contained in the basket came to the city of Champa ruled by a person of the Suta tribe. Indeed, the excellent coat of mail and those ear-rings made of Amrita

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-306

Vaisampayana said,And it came to pass that at this time a Suta named Adhiratha,who was a friend of Dhritarashtra, came to the river Ganga,accompanied by his wife. And, O king, his wife named Radha was unparalleled on earth for beauty. And although that

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-03:section-307

• He was poor, Wrong!

His given name was Vasusena, which means “rich,” because he was rich. When Kunti sent him off on his boat ride, he was loaded with valuable stuff.

Then the well-known husband of Radha, of the Suta caste, took up the child thus cast into the water, and he and his wife brought him up as their own son.And Radha and her husband bestowed on him the name of Vasusena born with wealth because he was born with a natural armour and ear-rings.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-111

• So how did Athiratha become Dhritharashtra’s charioteer?

After Pandu married Kunti, he starts on his Digvijay. He reaches Madradesh and marries Madri, installs her in Hastinapuri.

Then he continues on his campaign. Now, Anga/Chapa/Malini is not mentioned in his campaign, but the image shows how close he got.

http://ancientvoice.wdfiles.com/local--files/travel:pandu-s-travels/PandusMilitaryExpedition.jpg

And we know from the Rangbhumi episode, Anga was under Hastinapuri. Malini was later donated to Karna by Jarasandh, so that part was definitely annexed by him.

The following link shows what a BRUTAL conqueror Pandu was. He slaughtered the royalty of every kingdom captured by him. My guess is that, on account of his friendship with Dhritharashtra, Athiratha was allowed to live, and he chose to be a charioteer because that was the one thing he knew well.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-113

• Karna was denied weapons training due to his caste. Wrong!

The Vrishnis and the Andhakas, and princes from various lands, and the adopted son of Radha of the Suta caste, Karna, all became pupils of Drona.

http://ancientvoice.wikidot.com/src-mbh-01:section-134

See whose name is not mentioned here even though Vrishnis are? Krishna! That’s right. The only one who wasn’t part of the elite group was KRISHNA.

Karna was accepted by Drona as his student, only one specific weapon was denied by Drona to him that was Brahmashira as he wanted that weapon to defeat Arjun. Since Drona loved Arjun dearly and felt it was wrong to hand over a weapon of mass destruction to someone who only wanted to use it to prove his superiority he refused. Karna then went ahead to Parashuram lied to him that he was a Brahman and gained the weapon but got cursed when his truth was revealed.

• · Suyodhana metKarna for the first time in Rangabhoomi and made him a king when he was humiliated by Bhima. Wrong!

Suyodhana and Karna met in Drona's gurukul; they became friends as their fathers were already friends, and Karna became rival of Arjun while Suyodhana rivalled Bhima, and this cemented their friendship.

And seeing that in process of time his son had grown up, Adhiratha sent him to the city named after the elephant. And there Karna put up with Drona,for the purpose of learning arms. And that powerful youth contracted a friendship with Duryodhana. And having acquired all the four kinds of weapons from Drona, Kripa, and Rama, he became famous in the world as a mighty bowman.And after having contracted a friendship with Dhritarashtra's son, he became intent on injuring the sons of Pritha. And he was always desirous of fighting with the high-souled Falguna. And, O king, ever since they first saw each other,Karna always used to challenge Arjuna, and Arjuna, on his part, used to challenge him.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03307.htm

And isn’t it funny that Suyodhana offers Karna his own family’s kingdom back for challenging Arjuna in Rangabhoomi? And that later Jarasandh gives back Malini,which was the other half of said kingdom?

Karna was on a campaign to win back his father’s kingdom, and he was willing to sink to any level to do it. He did it to make Suyodhana happy. See for yourselves:

For those harsh words, O Krishna, that I said before unto the sons of Pandu for the gratification of Dhritarashtra's son,--for that wicked conduct of mine,--I am consumed with repentance.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m05/m05141.htm

• · Some more facts.

Karna was at least 5 - 7 years older than Yudhishtir that means he was an adult when he conspired with Suyodhana to kill the Pandavas, Bhima, specifically.

"When that terrible poison intended for the destruction of Bhima failed of its effect, Duryodhana. Karna and Sakuni, without giving up their wicked design had recourse to numerous other contrivances for accomplishing the death of the Pandavas. And though every one of these contrivances was fully known to the Pandavas, yet in accordance with the advice of Vidura they suppressed their indignation.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01130.htm

During the Pramanakoti poisoning and other attempts after it, no one had insulted Karna for being a suta (absolutely no one, not even Pandavas), no one hadd enied him anything. So no enmity with Pandavas, yet. No debt to Suyodhana,y et. No injustice to him, yet.

He was an adult (18–20) to know what murder is, and he chose to support Suyodhana. And later gets his reward in the form of Anga! This is why I say Suyodhana was Karna's puppet, not the other way around.

It’s this crucial part before Karna enters Rangabhoomi that gets covered up that highlights the real character of Karna. The moment you read this part the hue of this character changes completely.

Karna Part 2

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE CE CITATIONS USED HERE FALL WITHIN LIMITATIONS OF FAIR USE. Ie, ONLY ENOUGH MATERIAL FOR CRTIQUE/DISCUSSION.

Karna’s views on caste:

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1177)

brahmana who performs ceremonies 385 for shudras confronts destruction. Like that, one who hates brahmanas always confronts destruction

PLEASENOTE: According to Karna, a Brahmana cannot even conduct a ceremony for a lower caste, much less marry him.

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1180)

“Bahlikas eat from vessels made out of wood and clay, in which, coarse meal has

been ground and which have been licked by dogs. They have no revulsion at this. They drink the milk of sheep, camels and asses. They drink and eat preparations made from these. Inter-caste sons are Born there and those contemptible ones drink every kind of milk and eat everything. The learned say that the Bahlikas known as Aratta must always be avoided.

PLEASE NOTE: Food-shaming, again. Also, those intercaste people must be avoided as per Karna.

(More from CE, Vol 7,Chapter 1180)

O great king! However, having gone to the Bahlikas, I learnt the following.There, one first becomes a brahmana and then becomes a kshatriya. Thereafter,one becomes a vaishya, a shudra, a Bahlika, and finally a barber. Having become a barber, one once again becomes a brahmana. Having become a brahmana there,one is once again Born as a slave. In every family, there is only one virtuous brahmana. Everyone else follows one’s desires. The Gandharas, the Madrakas and the Bahlikas possess limited intelligence. That is what I heard there, about the admixture of dharma. Having travelled throughout the entire earth, I heard about this catastrophe among Bahlikas.” O Shalya! You are certain to know this.

PLEASE NOTE: Karna objected anyone of lower caste becoming upper caste or going lower. He was against the “admixture” of dharma (as in caste).

(Still more from CE, Vol 7,Chapter 1180)

The Panchalas follow the brahman. The Kouraveyas follow their own dharma. The Matsyas observe truth and the Shurasenas perform sacrifices. Those from the eastern regions are like slaves and those from the southern regions are contemptible.

PLEASE NOTE: Karna thought those from the east (where Bengal, Bihar etc. would be) and from the south (of the Vindhyas) contemptible.

Karna’s thoughts on women:

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1177)

If the man who shows Arjuna to me thinks that is not enough, I will again give him six carts full of gold, drawn by bulls that are like elephants. I will again give him one hundred Ornamented women. They will be virgins,372 with necklaces of gold, and skilled in singing and dancing

…

If the man who shows me Arjuna thinks that this is not enough, I will give him another boon that he will desire himself. I possess sons, wives and riches. If he desires these, I will again give them to him

PLEASE NOTE: Karna was donating one hundred virgins, as well as his own wives to any informant who would help him kill Arjuna and Krishna Vasudeva.

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1177)

Fathers,mothers, sons, mothers-in-law, fathers-in-law, maternal uncles, sons-

in-law,daughters, brothers, grandsons, kin, friends, others who have arrived, male servants and female servants mingle together. Noble women, according to their own wishes, mingle with men, known and unknown. In their homes, even the better ones always eat coarse grain and other undesirable food. They drink liquor, 384eat the flesh of cows and dance and laugh. The songs don’t have proper rhymes.They indulge in satisfying desire. They speak to each other, incoherent in desire. How can there be dharma there?

…

Women who are intoxicated by liquor cast off their clothes and dance around. They do not follow restraints and indulge in sexual intercourse, following the dictates of desire. O Madraka! You are the son of one such. How can you talk about dharma? There are inferior women who urinate like camels and buffaloes. They are devoid of shame, and shamelessly do this everywhere. You are the son of one such person. How can you talk about dharma? If asked for collyrium, a Madraka woman scratches her buttocks and unwilling to give it, speaks these terrible words. “No. I will not give any collyrium. I

would rather give my beloved instead. On every occasion, I will give up my son. But I will not give the collyrium.” Madraka women are ignoble. They are large. They are without modesty and are hairy. They eat a lot and are without any purity.That is what is generally heard. I, and others, are capable of recounting many such things about them, from the ends of their hair to the tips of their toes.How can the Madrakas and the Sindhu-Souviras know about dharma?

PLEASE NOTE:Fat-shaming, ***t-shaming, ( :D ) hair shaming, shaming mingling of genders,shaming mingling of social classes, food-shaming, compares women to animals,calls Shalya the son of a w**** (which, if I’m not mistaken, is way worse than calling someone the son of a Suta). And apparently, sons of plump, hairy women cannot possibly know about dharma.

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1180)

Intoxicated,the women throw away their garments and laugh, sing and dance in the cities,and outside the walls, without garlands and unguents. Intoxicated, they sing many songs, in voices that are like those of asses and camels. They freely summon others. 420 When their husbands and lords are killed, they call out their names in intoxication and say, ‘Alas! Alas!’ However, those wicked ones do not observe sacred occasions and continue to scream and dance.

PLEASE NOTE: Shaming women who dared to drink or dance.

Forget happy women, Karna didn’t like it when women were unhappy at their husbands’ death, either. He was more worried about the rituals.

(CE, Vol 7, Chapter 1180)

O king! Knowing all this about dharma, be quiet. O Shalya! Be like those who cannot speak. You are the protector and the king of those people. Therefore,you have one-sixth share in their good and evil deeds. Or else, since you do not protect them, you only have a share in their evil deeds. A king who protects the good deeds of his subjects obtains a share in those good deeds.

…much later in the same chapter…

“Shalya said, ‘O Karna! Abandoning of the distressed and the sale of wives and sons is prevalent among those from Anga.

…

anjaya said, “Karna did not say anything in reply and Shalya faced the direction of the enemy.

PLEASE NOTE: Sale of widows and orphans was common practice in in Karna’s kingdom of Anga. By his own words, Karna was responsible.

This Karna is the hero promoted by books and shows. If they really wanted to promote a lower caste hero, show what Krishna actually was. HE was a suta. Why is this fact always covered up? Then, there is Ghatotkatch. Promote him, instead. Also, Vidur is called a Kshatta. Ie, son of a ksatriya woman (his mother) and a shudra man (Vyasa). Ie, VYASA was a shudra, much lower than suta.

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

This Karna is the hero promoted by books and shows. If they really wanted to promote a lower caste hero, show what Krishna actually was. HE was a suta. Why is this fact always covered up? Then, there is Ghatotkatch. Promote him, instead. Also, Vidur is called a Kshatta. Ie, son of a ksatriya woman (his mother) and a shudra man (Vyasa). Ie, VYASA was a shudra, much lower than suta.

I read what you wrote about Karna. Thanks for so much detailing.

I have always found Karna as an obsessive crybaby, a chronic complainer and a blame gamer who always plays the victim card to overshadow his own wrongdoings and never takes any responsibility. He always seemed very rigid and judgemental to me as well. But didn't know in such details. Thank you for that.

Krishna's all the brothers were killed by his own uncle even before he was born. Then he was born inside a jail. Inspite of being a kshatriya and a royal prince, he had to grow up as a milkman. Even then, multiple murder attempts had been made on him since he was an infant. The age when he was supposed to be educated and trained in weaponry, he had to graze cows and handle cowdung. He had to leave his parents and friends in a tender age forever and take up responsibility as an adult. He had to kill his own maternal uncle in a tender age and this can leave a scar in a boy's heart forever. He had to start his education, years after other kshatriya boys started education and still he emerged victorious from that. Again he had to leave his kingdom with his people and had to be stranded in an island in the middle of nowhere. To avoid destruction, he didn't care about his ego or reputation and accepted the name of ranchhod and a coward instead. He never could marry the girl he loved and instead only married the ones who needed him to be saved or to survive. He never married for himself. He even lost his firstborn when he was days old and never got to raise him. He even lost his nephew Abhimanyu whom he loved like a son. Even after everything he accepted Gandhari's curse without a frown and bore that in heart for 36 years. But no1 could ever hear him complaining regarding any of this.

Same with Arjuna. Multiple murder attempts since childhood by his own cousins, always the pawn for his older brother, always having the highest responsibility to compensate for everyone else's misdoings---starting from Kunti to Yudhisthir to Drona, spent about 80% of his life in the forest (even more than his brothers) and I can even go on about this as well.

I think the only good things that happened in his life were Subhadra and Krishna. But he too never kept complaining and blaming others and instead kept performing his responsibilities silently.

But Karna had a better fate than most (even Duryadhan was raised by two blind(literally and figuratively) parents who didn't perform any actual responsibility towards him).......But still all Karn did was complaining and victim playing.

I think he is romanticized so much in the current tales because love triangle between rival brothers separated in birth is like hotcake among most audience. So Karn is potrayed as the first corner in Draupadi's love angle and after the suta incident in the sayamvar, he is depicted as a heartbroken man who wants to avenge the man who got the girl and eventually gets killed in the process while he isn't even holding a weapon.

He is depicted as a grey tragic hero(not even anti-hero) in a love triangle because that shit sells.

Originally posted by: stormborn

I have always had the same problem with this RK.

Women are being treated as things in swastik RK universe for a long time now. When Vrishvan had promised Ugra to give him anything he wanted, Ugra wanted Radha. But the question was, was Radha Vrishvan's property to simply 'give' to others ? Throughout the whole bhay track and Sudevi's wedding, that's what Krishna had been trying to convince people of---that women are not their father's property and are individual human beings with individual choices and thoughts. But then the same Krishna took out thr same Radha literally into marketplace where Radha put herself into auction. Krishna for once didn't say that Vrishvan was bound to give only a part of his property to Ugra. Radha, a human being was not a 'thing' in his belongings to simply handover to people and that's why Vrisha didn't have any obligation to pass Radha on as a thing or go to the forest failing to do that.

After that I left watching altogether.

I again started with MB introduction but the same thing is now happening with Draupadi. Infront of her, Krishna talks heavily about feminism but actually he is just manipulating her for the so called dharma sthapana. She depends on him ( and a little bit on shikhandi) for every trivial thing and doesn't have a mind of her own. Just like Radha, she suffers from an identity crisis and needs to be repeatedly reminded of who she actually is.

This show has always been shallow and has always lacked depth. I am trying to take it in only the scale of humour and entertainment value. I will watch until I can do that and again leave watching when it becomes unbearable ( which I am sure that it will ).

This Krishna's entire character definition is that he is a master manipulator and can stoop to limitless levels to manipulate people into his ways and to do what he thinks is right.

Women have always been treated as a sack of wheat for men to pass on and use in this show and it will never change. Coz the makers don't even understand this and they think this show is a feminist show.

BOLD, Underlined - this is the million dollar truth stormie and that is why in rage at one point I had blasted swastik in insta and twitter. Well, i know it does not matter to them, they will show what they want to as the major fandom are only watching for the leads, no one cares for the authenticity of characters or for the story. I am not saying follow a scripture, i am all for using creativity, but have some logic and consistency, dont make a character double faced or with split personality just for his selfish reasons. This is by no means a character of a great human being!! I have no clue what bullshit research these people have done in 2 years!! And not to blame them, on top they have blindless brainless followers in insta and twitter

Originally posted by: HearMeRoar

I'm so outraged by this😡. I started watching for the MBh portions alone. I believe I'm going to quit.

Krishna was one person in the epic who never treated a woman as a thing. So what excuse is he going to have after Yudhishtira stakes Panchali. She's a thing according to Krishna himself.

Argh. I'm so mad. I don't believe in magic and curses and stuff, but if I did, every bit of my ill will would be on that production house. They're using God and religion to justify women being treated as property.

I knew that suthputhra line was coming. Even if only 4 out of 1600+ manuscripts have it, people use that to justify Karna's incitement of sexual assault on Panchali later on. As though her rejection somehow justifies sexual assault! Still, the rejection is there in 4 manuscripts. Ie, 0.25% of manuscripts, but it's not zero.

But that "divya sadhan" thing is something else, man! So what's the excuse when people do honor killings and revenge rapes and sex trafficking and all? Women are simply things, the means to an end! From the mouth of God himself! Do this enough times, this kind of attitude gets normalized in society.

How do these lines get past censors?

In that context this whole show should not have passed the BOARD, for all the character assassination they have written!!!!

3 Shows 3 freaking shows and SKT still had not deemed it necessary to incorporate the actual epic in the so called "research" that he keeps doing.